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Do you have some statistical data you can show us to back up that claim about over half of the people moving out of NY due to retirement? I'm not saying that retirement and the desire to move to a more moderate climate aren't factors for why people leave the state, but I think you're discounting the effect that year after year of paying some of the highest taxes in the country has on people. The only reason many people put up with paying five-figure property tax bills in this area is that they've got six-figure jobs working in Manhattan.
I am absolutely downplaying the effect of taxes. Taxes don't cause people to move. There have been extensive studies about this in California, New Jersey, and Maryland after all instituted millionaire taxes. People move because of climate and housing costs.
I believe I cited the data in a previous post. Over 2 million migrates from New York between 2000-2008 went to Florida and Arizona.
Quote:
Originally Posted by manyroads
When my parents sold their house in Westchester back in 1996, they were paying between $7600-7700/yr in property taxes. That was in 1996! My Dad couldn't wait to get out of NY and stop throwing away so much of his hard-earned money on taxes. Yes, he was also getting tired of the NY winters too, so the desire to move to a better climate also influenced his decision to move south. It's a combination of factors for most people.
FYI, "snowbirds" are people who maintain a residence in the northeast or midwest, and flock to places like Florida or Arizona during the winter. They haven't made the permanent, year-round move to another state yet.
They make it permanent when they retire, which is exactly what is happening to the baby boomers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by manyroads
LMAO!! Where in the world did you get the idea that New Jersey has a "subtropical" climate? Florida has a subtropical climate, New Jersey does not. Some of the areas along the New Jersey shore may have their climate moderated by the effects of the Atlantic Ocean, but they are still not subtropical in nature. Northern NJ has the same climate as the NYC metro area.
My point really was that New York State, residents across all income levels pay roughly the same amount of their income in taxes. Yes, taxes are high in New York but New Yorkers pick up more of their tab for services than most states. Gas tax was the example I used, in which New York is #5 for least subsidized.
Below is the 2010 data. From 2005 to 2012 I see these changes:
- NYS has shifted from a "giver" to neutral: 0.79 to 1.
- California has flipped from "giver" to "taker"
- Illinois is still a giver, but less.
- Texas is still a giver, but more so.
I am absolutely downplaying the effect of taxes. Taxes don't cause people to move. There have been extensive studies about this in California, New Jersey, and Maryland after all instituted millionaire taxes. People move because of climate and housing costs.
I really don't understand why you refuse to acknowledge the impact that high taxes have on someone's choice to move to another area with lower taxes. Do you honestly believe that most people like giving up five figures of their hard-earned money every year in taxes?? Believe me, they don't. I hear a lot of my wealthy customers complain about how sick they are of paying so much money in taxes in our area. Some of them even talk about moving outside the US, but are just waiting for the right time to do it (when their kids are out of school, for example). I don't know what kind of people you know who actually enjoy paying the high taxes that we face in this part of the country, but trust me, most people don't like it.
Climate is more of a factor in choosing a place to live when people retire, and even then, it's not a consideration for everyone. Some people don't mind the cold weather, even when they get older. Many cities with colder climates, such as Scranton and Wilkes-Barre, and upstate NY cities, have significant numbers of older residents.
Housing costs are of course a consideration, but they are just one part of the costs of living in a given area, together with taxes (yes, taxes), utility costs, food and transportation costs, etc. It's a desire to escape the overall high costs of living in the northeastern US, particularly in the NYC metro area, that are driving people away from here and to areas with lower costs of living.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikBEggs)I believe I cited the data in a previous post. Over 2 million migrates from New York between 2000-2008 went to Florida and Arizona.[/QUOTE
Actually, according to the article I believe I provided a link to in one of my earlier posts (The States People Are Fleeing In 2014 - Forbes) the number one state that people are currently moving to is Oregon, not Florida or Arizona. Somehow I don't see Oregon as a popular choice for retirees.
According to the latest edition of the Places Rated Almanac, which is a well-known and widely respected guide for data on cities throughout the US, Trenton, Camden and Vineland, NJ, as well as Philadelphia, fall within the area classified as the Delaware Valley, whose climate is labeled as "Hot Continental", not subtropical. The NYC metro area, as well as Charlotte and Greensboro, NC also fall under the Hot Continental climate type.
Tampa, Orlando, Charleston (SC), Raleigh, and (surprisingly) Virginia Beach and Richmond, are labeled subtropical climate types.
Enough with the talk about New Jersey having a subtropical climate. That is one of the most ridiculous statements I've seen in this forum.
Last edited by manyroads; 02-27-2014 at 10:24 AM..
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Ok I can finally sit down and answer this one....
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikBEggs
Texas doesn't have winter, which was my point.
Texas has winter but to no great extent but you said “1) New York has a lot of drivers on a lot of road-miles. We have 9 interstates in New York, and 23 auxiliary interstates. Don't forget that New York highways are the biggest thoroughfare for Canadian travelers headed South. Canadians not using the Thruway don't contribute to our road network, nor do Canadian shoppers, or those using our airport. Most of Canada's population is within 100 miles of New York.” As I posted Texas has 3 times the mileage of highways and I will bet as much if not more traffic from Mexico and south as Canada provides from the north.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikBEggs
Look at the snowiest cities in the USA (population > 1 million) and compare Minnesota and Illinois with how many are from New York. Rochester and Buffalo are #1 and #2, and both receive nearly twice of Minneapolis and three times of Chicago. Syracuse is >500,000 and is snowier on average than both Rochester and Buffalo. Binghampton and Albany would also fall on that list with their average annual snowfall. Like I said, no state has the snow removal bill NY has. Not even close..
You take a generous hand when assigning populations to a city Rochester is 210,000, Buffalo is 260,000 a bit distant from >1 million. Minneapolis is 340,00 and St Paul on the other side of the river is 290,000. I think most people would agree that Chicago, Minneapolis have a far greater effect on the US economy than Rochester, Syracuse, and Albany. My point is there are other significant cities with snow removal obligations many of which affect commerce in this county.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikBEggs
That would require them to stop for gas in New York State, which they don't. If they stop on the Thruway, that cash goes to the Thruway Authority, not the state roads.
What do you want? Now the Thruway is not considered a state road? Should we implement a road use tax too enter this country?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikBEggs
New York City is also on the list of significant snowfall even though their winter is very light. Upstate New York still has a significant population. I'd have to look up how populated Non-NYC Metro New York State is.
So, your argument is that New York should lower the gas taxes and have the Federal taxpayers pick up more of the tab?
No my argument is that the Thruway should start being funded by the state and stop gouging residents and travelers. Your one of only a few states that charge for a highways usage most others have removed the tolls once the bond debt was paid off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikBEggs
Toll roads are allowed to remain tolled for good reason. There are no free lunches. Bridges and roads need maintenance. If toll roads remove tolls, the gas and income taxes have to increase to pay for maintenance. The primary reason toll roads were left on the Northeastern Turnpike complex is because out of state motorists use the road and don't contribute to gas taxes.
I now recognize your writing, you have posted before under a different name. This last paragraph you wrote is almost verbatim of one I read before. You fail to see you have a system poorly managed (financially) bound to labor contracts that cost far more than they should and all of it being paid by the citizens.
Out of state motorist don’t contribute to the gas tax??? I myself always fill up in NJ because I save @.40 per gallon (maybe more). I remember seeing on the parkway northbound lines waiting for gas in NJ and the pumps on the NY side a mile ahead with no one in line. A one day survey would show how state line gas stations do great business with New Yorkers coming over.
Yes, the age old conservative idea that people are fleeing because of taxes. WRONG!
Over half the people leaving New York (New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusettes as well) are going to Arizona or Florida. They are called snowbirds. Retiring in sunny pastures!
The main reason for people leaving Northeastern states are retirement / climate, and housing costs near the NYC metro.
Last I checked, property/school taxes are a significant recurrent, and rising cost when owning a house.
My parents, my grandmother, my sister, her husband's parents, her brother-in-law, their cousins -- just to name a few people -- left NY because of high taxes, not because of the weather. The taxes on mom and dad's old NY house are in the 10K range today, while their FL home is under $2K. Saving $8K/year when you're retired and have a small pension makes a huge difference.
Last I checked, property/school taxes are a significant recurrent, and rising cost when owning a house.
My parents, my grandmother, my sister, her husband's parents, her brother-in-law, their cousins -- just to name a few people -- left NY because of high taxes, not because of the weather. The taxes on mom and dad's old NY house are in the 10K range today, while their FL home is under $2K. Saving $8K/year when you're retired and have a small pension makes a huge difference.
Thanks for sharing! The high property taxes also drove many corporations out of the NYS therefore the residents are sharing these overloading taxes.
Last I checked, property/school taxes are a significant recurrent, and rising cost when owning a house.
My parents, my grandmother, my sister, her husband's parents, her brother-in-law, their cousins -- just to name a few people -- left NY because of high taxes, not because of the weather. The taxes on mom and dad's old NY house are in the 10K range today, while their FL home is under $2K. Saving $8K/year when you're retired and have a small pension makes a huge difference.
^This
Or not retired. $10k on a $40k "take home" salary is 25% of your net pay!
That's way too much. And the property taxes will only creep up!
Like NY, in NJ you have to be extremely diligent about where you buy. Sometimes you find that way underassessed house with only $4500 in taxes here. I found one and I bought it a few years ago. Homes around it are $8k or more, I was paying $4500. On a $300k house too- which is unheard of in this state.
Ok I can finally sit down and answer this one....
Texas has winter but to no great extent but you said “1) New York has a lot of drivers on a lot of road-miles. We have 9 interstates in New York, and 23 auxiliary interstates. Don't forget that New York highways are the biggest thoroughfare for Canadian travelers headed South. Canadians not using the Thruway don't contribute to our road network, nor do Canadian shoppers, or those using our airport. Most of Canada's population is within 100 miles of New York.” As I posted Texas has 3 times the mileage of highways and I will bet as much if not more traffic from Mexico and south as Canada provides from the north.
You take a generous hand when assigning populations to a city Rochester is 210,000, Buffalo is 260,000 a bit distant from >1 million. Minneapolis is 340,00 and St Paul on the other side of the river is 290,000. I think most people would agree that Chicago, Minneapolis have a far greater effect on the US economy than Rochester, Syracuse, and Albany. My point is there are other significant cities with snow removal obligations many of which affect commerce in this county.
What do you want? Now the Thruway is not considered a state road? Should we implement a road use tax too enter this country?
No my argument is that the Thruway should start being funded by the state and stop gouging residents and travelers. Your one of only a few states that charge for a highways usage most others have removed the tolls once the bond debt was paid off.
So you want higher taxes and more socialism? Make up your mind. The Thruway costs $421 million / year to maintain. That is a lot of gas tax revenue to make up. You want higher gas prices or for people that actually use the Thruway (which includes a large amount of non-NYers) to pay for it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Yankee
I now recognize your writing, you have posted before under a different name. This last paragraph you wrote is almost verbatim of one I read before. You fail to see you have a system poorly managed (financially) bound to labor contracts that cost far more than they should and all of it being paid by the citizens.
Out of state motorist don’t contribute to the gas tax??? I myself always fill up in NJ because I save @.40 per gallon (maybe more). I remember seeing on the parkway northbound lines waiting for gas in NJ and the pumps on the NY side a mile ahead with no one in line. A one day survey would show how state line gas stations do great business with New Yorkers coming over.
That's fine, but that has no bearing on most people, who don't live near a state border.
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Believe me, they don't. I hear a lot of my wealthy customers complain about how sick they are of paying so much money in taxes in our area. Some of them even talk about moving outside the US, but are just waiting for the right time to do it (when their kids are out of school, for example). I don't know what kind of people you know who actually enjoy paying the high taxes that we face in this part of the country, but trust me, most people don't like it.
