U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > New York
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 07-29-2014, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Deep in the Woods
2,549 posts, read 2,655,711 times
Reputation: 2850

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
I'm not specifically talking to you. My points are pretty simple and are in a general form. Median household income is used for a reason and by many agencies and publications. It sets a standard for which to gauge home quality and prices in an area. If it is about a price range, then you would have plenty of fine areas to choose from up here in a range of communities.

Also, land size makes a big difference when looking at stats like population, crime rate and neighborhoods. If you like an outer city neighborhood in Raleigh, you are more likely to like a neighborhood in between a first and second ring suburb up here given the land and annex law differences. That latter statement is why cities can't annex, as every municipality is incorporated versus the amount of unincorporated areas that can get annexed in other states. You'll also notice how when looking at cities, many publications look at the metro area due to the difference in annexing and (un)incorporated areas within different areas. That's why when looking it this way you can have a lower metro crime rate for the Albany and Syracuse areas versus the Raleigh area, in spite of just looking at city info and especially since people tend to go to different parts of a metro area.

Even when looking at Detroit and Boston, you are probably more likely to like Indian Village or Sherwood Forest in Detroit than Mattapan or Roxbury in Boston, Hunter's Point in SF, East NY or South Bronx in NYC or North Philly . So, that even comes down to where you live in these cities. Personally, I think Seattle, Portland, Salt Lake City, Boulder, Boise, Des Moines, Omaha, etc are more of your cup of tea. If you can walk around in Philly, you can do so in similar parts of cities up here as well.
My bad. I thought you were because you quoted me. Also, this isn't personal, ckh. I respect your opinion. Its not a matter of fear of crime (regarding the majority white cities you mentioned that I should live in), its a matter of quality of life.

Here's the difference between how you look at things and how I look at things. When I have been to Detroit, I notice that 80% of what I see is abandoned, graffitied, destroyed, basically looking like this:

http://www.wsws.org/en/media/photos/...ire-480cap.jpg

When I go to Boston, 80% of what I see looks like this:

http://promptguides.com/boston/_phot...street_002.jpg

I'm aware that there are good areas in Detroit and bad areas of Boston, but there's a reality to these cities. One has 20% good areas (if that) and the other has 80% good areas. You can disagree with my numbers but that's how I see it. No one wants to live in good neighborhood with bad neighborhoods all around it. No one wants to live in a city that is only 20% not burned out. It doesn't make Detroit not interesting, or have a great history, I just don't want to live there.

NY State, with Albany and Syracuse included, is no different.

JUDGMENTAL MAPS : Photo

Here is the map that Bellafinzi posted of Syracuse's bad areas:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/4823333-post3.html

I mean, we're not talking about a street here or there. The near-whole west side and south side is covered, as well as a lot of the north and a bit of the east. I didn't create this map, but you agreed its accurate, doesn't it make sense that someone coming to your city would also see these areas and be disappointed?

People aren't just taking one safe interstate to one safe destination. They're gonna drive all around if they're thinking about living there. Imagining what day to day life is like.

Also, its interesting how when a local posts a map that is overwhelmingly negative, its ok. But if a potential relocator has a legitimate gripe, its a balls to the wall assault on them.

I understand that there are reasons for the decline of these areas, no one is arguing that, and many of those reasons (jobs moving overseas) is not the fault of anyone. But to tell someone who visited the state and was dismayed at the prospect of living in one of the cities as "no idea what there talking about" (not you) and then to say that Buffalo is growing at 4% a year throws up a red flag of desperation.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-29-2014, 11:15 AM
 
56,156 posts, read 80,230,959 times
Reputation: 12387
Quote:
Originally Posted by VintageSunlight View Post
My bad. I thought you were because you quoted me. Also, this isn't personal, ckh. I respect your opinion. Its not a matter of fear of crime (regarding the majority white cities you mentioned that I should live in), its a matter of quality of life.

Here's the difference between how you look at things and how I look at things. When I have been to Detroit, I notice that 80% of what I see is abandoned, graffitied, destroyed, basically looking like this:

http://www.wsws.org/en/media/photos/...ire-480cap.jpg

When I go to Boston, 80% of what I see looks like this:

http://promptguides.com/boston/_phot...street_002.jpg

I'm aware that there are good areas in Detroit and bad areas of Boston, but there's a reality to these cities. One has 20% good areas (if that) and the other has 80% good areas. You can disagree with my numbers but that's how I see it. No one wants to live in good neighborhood with bad neighborhoods all around it. No one wants to live in a city that is only 20% not burned out. It doesn't make Detroit not interesting, or have a great history, I just don't want to live there.

NY State, with Albany and Syracuse included, is no different.

JUDGMENTAL MAPS : Photo

Here is the map that Bellafinzi posted of Syracuse's bad areas:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/4823333-post3.html

I mean, we're not talking about a street here or there. The near-whole west side and south side is covered, as well as a lot of the north and a bit of the east. I didn't create this map, but you agreed its accurate, doesn't it make sense that someone coming to your city would also see these areas and be disappointed?

People aren't just taking one safe interstate to one safe destination. They're gonna drive all around if they're thinking about living there. Imagining what day to day life is like.

Also, its interesting how when a local posts a map that is overwhelmingly negative, its ok. But if a potential relocator has a legitimate gripe, its a balls to the wall assault on them.

I understand that there are reasons for the decline of these areas, no one is arguing that, and many of those reasons (jobs moving overseas) is not the fault of anyone. But to tell someone who visited the state and was dismayed at the prospect of living in one of the cities as "no idea what there talking about" (not you) and then to say that Buffalo is growing at 4% a year throws up a red flag of desperation.
I wouldn't say that all of Syracuse's West Side is bad. Near West Side and Skunk City sure, but also have Tipp Hill and while it is more blue collar, the West End isn't bad either. South Valley, Strathmore and Winkworth are fine areas of the South/SW Sides, with perhaps North Valley at the ends. I said that it is give or take, not that it is exact. You would be surprised by how many people in the area have no clue where some those areas are either. On the East Side, it is essentially a strip and on the North Side, it is more in the inner neighborhoods, while Court-Woodlawn, Sedgwick and the portion of the Lincoln Hill area is fine. This doesn't even include Eastwood, which is largely fine, the East Side, Franklin Square and Downtown, along with those outer neighborhoods on the other sides of town.

Again, my point about cities is that it isn't cut and dry. I already explained this. Detroit's nice neighborhoods aren't necessarily islands and take a look at the Woodward Ave corridor towards Oakland County, for instance or the Villages. You still wouldn't mess with Mattapan, Roxbury, half of Dorchester, parts of Hyde Park and probably a few others in Boston either. Basically, you live in a neighborhood and you pick that accordingly.

People also take note of neighborhoods to avoid, which are in any American city. That doesn't mean that you would be looking to go to these neighborhoods. I doubt that you do that with Philadelphia. So, other cities are no different.

Also, if it is a local, you are going to get variation. So, I don't know what that is referring to.

This is essentially a flame thread anyway, as the OP still hasn't responded to anything and is considering a city in his home state with a crime rate worst than that of Upstate cities. That makes sense.....

Last edited by ckhthankgod; 07-29-2014 at 11:28 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2014, 11:55 AM
 
Location: Deep in the Woods
2,549 posts, read 2,655,711 times
Reputation: 2850
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
I wouldn't say that all of Syracuse's West Side is bad. Near West Side and Skunk City sure, but also have Tipp Hill and while it is more blue collar, the West End isn't bad either. South Valley, Strathmore and Winkworth are fine areas of the South/SW Sides, with perhaps North Valley at the ends. I said that it is give or take, not that it is exact. You would be surprised by how many people in the area have no clue where some those areas are either. On the East Side, it is essentially a strip and on the North Side, it is more in the inner neighborhoods, while Court-Woodlawn, Sedgwick and the portion of the Lincoln Hill area is fine. This doesn't even include Eastwood, which is largely fine, the East Side, Franklin Square and Downtown, along with those outer neighborhoods on the other sides of town.

Again, my point about cities is that it isn't cut and dry. I already explained this. Detroit's nice neighborhoods aren't necessarily islands and take a look at the Woodward Ave corridor towards Oakland County, for instance or the Villages. You still wouldn't mess with Mattapan, Roxbury, half of Dorchester, parts of Hyde Park and probably a few others in Boston either. Basically, you live in a neighborhood and you pick that accordingly.

People also take note of neighborhoods to avoid, which are in any American city. That doesn't mean that you would be looking to go to these neighborhoods. I doubt that you do that with Philadelphia. So, other cities are no different.

Also, if it is a local, you are going to get variation. So, I don't know what that is referring to.

This is essentially a flame thread anyway, as the OP still hasn't responded to anything and is considering a city in his home state with a crime rate worst than that of Upstate cities. That makes sense.....
It may be a flame thread. Or it may be nep321 I don't know if his concern was an issue with crime though (he never mentioned crime) or more of an issue with lack of jobs and population loss.

I've been to Syracuse probably 10 times and Rochester 3. Some recommendations for places like Hawley Green come up for people and I just don't see it. I'm weary of places that put up a rainbow flag and paint a Victorian house on one street and suddenly its the next great neighborhood.

I'm weary when a neighborhood has to be sold to me. Great places to live don't need to be oversold, actually, they usually downplay it. I've never seen a commerical for vacationing in Martha's Vineyard, but I see commercials 10 times a day to come to Atlantic City (which is currently imploding).

Boston's downtown and main commercial districts are completely fine, extremely expensive (due to high demand to live there), and probably fully occupied. The areas you mentioned are outer city neighborhoods and aren't surrounding the city in every direction (they're all south of Boston's downtown). Detroit it is not.

You and I have different standards perhaps and that's fine. I can't really add much else to the conversation.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2014, 12:33 PM
 
56,156 posts, read 80,230,959 times
Reputation: 12387
Quote:
Originally Posted by VintageSunlight View Post
It may be a flame thread. Or it may be nep321 I don't know if his concern was an issue with crime though (he never mentioned crime) or more of an issue with lack of jobs and population loss.

I've been to Syracuse probably 10 times and Rochester 3. Some recommendations for places like Hawley Green come up for people and I just don't see it. I'm weary of places that put up a rainbow flag and paint a Victorian house on one street and suddenly its the next great neighborhood.

I'm weary when a neighborhood has to be sold to me. Great places to live don't need to be oversold, actually, they usually downplay it. I've never seen a commerical for vacationing in Martha's Vineyard, but I see commercials 10 times a day to come to Atlantic City (which is currently imploding).

Boston's downtown and main commercial districts are completely fine, extremely expensive (due to high demand to live there), and probably fully occupied. The areas you mentioned are outer city neighborhoods and aren't surrounding the city in every direction (they're all south of Boston's downtown). Detroit it is not.

You and I have different standards perhaps and that's fine. I can't really add much else to the conversation.
No one has said that Hawley-Green is the next best neighborhood in Syracuse. It may get recommended if one is looking for a neighborhood with an LGBT concentration, but people also note that it is somewhat gentrified. Westcott also gets suggested in this regard, as has the the nice neighborhoods around a Sunnycrest Park in Eastwood, which is the census tract in Upstate NY with the second highest percentage of single sex households. So, I again don't know what you are referring to in regards to Hawley-Green or selling neighborhoods. If you look in that area though, around Howard/Green would be where to look. If any area of the city is the up and coming area, I'd say that Franklin Square/Inner Harbor is, as more housing and projects are being built.

Detroit's Downtown has seen increased interest in recent years and seems to be fine. Nearby Corktown and the Cass Corridor have also seen similar interest. Those areas of Boston still shows that the city varies in terms of neighborhoods, which is my point. Why rehashing this every third month is in vogue, but it is just a simple point without hyping up or down any city.

Last edited by ckhthankgod; 07-29-2014 at 12:46 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2014, 01:37 PM
 
Location: Deep in the Woods
2,549 posts, read 2,655,711 times
Reputation: 2850
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
No one has said that Hawley-Green is the next best neighborhood in Syracuse. It may get recommended if one is looking for a neighborhood with an LGBT concentration, but people also note that it is somewhat gentrified. Westcott also gets suggested in this regard, as has the the nice neighborhoods around a Sunnycrest Park in Eastwood, which is the census tract in Upstate NY with the second highest percentage of single sex households. So, I again don't know what you are referring to in regards to Hawley-Green or selling neighborhoods. If you look in that area though, around Howard/Green would be where to look. If any area of the city is the up and coming area, I'd say that Franklin Square/Inner Harbor is, as more housing and projects are being built.

Detroit's Downtown has seen increased interest in recent years and seems to be fine. Nearby Corktown and the Cass Corridor have also seen similar interest. Those areas of Boston still shows that the city varies in terms of neighborhoods, which is my point. Why rehashing this every third month is in vogue, but it is just a simple point without hyping up or down any city.
Why this? You tend to do that when the discussion isn't going your way. I'm not going to go down that road with you. I said I respect your opinion, please don't disrespect mine.

I'm not hyping up any city, nor putting any city down. This is a City Data forum where people discuss and have opinions about different cities and neighborhoods.

If you feel Detroit's downtown is fine, that that shows exactly what I said when I mentioned that we clearly have different standards. If Boston is the city that people need to be careful in, and "Detroit is fine", we obviously have different definitions and standards on what's considered urban blight.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2014, 01:50 PM
 
56,156 posts, read 80,230,959 times
Reputation: 12387
Quote:
Originally Posted by VintageSunlight View Post
Why this? You tend to do that when the discussion isn't going your way. I'm not going to go down that road with you. I said I respect your opinion, please don't disrespect mine.

I'm not hyping up any city, nor putting any city down. This is a City Data forum where people discuss and have opinions about different cities and neighborhoods.

If you feel Detroit's downtown is fine, that that shows exactly what I said when I mentioned that we clearly have different standards. If Boston is the city that people need to be careful in, and "Detroit is fine", we obviously have different definitions and standards on what's considered urban blight.
Things aren't going my way? No, the topic has been bear to death and is actually not relevant to the OP.

I never said that Detroit's Downtown or as a whole is fine or that people need to be careful in Boston. I said that cities vary, period. When you make up your mind as to what you want to do, just let us know.

To the OP, where were you able to go within the cities you went to?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2014, 02:15 PM
 
Location: Deep in the Woods
2,549 posts, read 2,655,711 times
Reputation: 2850
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
Things aren't going my way? No, the topic has been bear to death and is actually not relevant to the OP.

I never said that Detroit's Downtown or as a whole is fine or that people need to be careful in Boston. I said that cities vary, period. When you make up your mind as to what you want to do, just let us know.

To the OP, where were you able to go within the cities you went to?
Actually you did say exactly that. Read your post.

Will Upstate NY Come Back From The Economic Decline?

Cities vary? Who said that cities don't vary? My exact point was that cities vary, hence my comparison of Boston and Detroit. What topic has been beat to death?

I already know where I'm going and what my plans are. This isn't about any of that. It was just a discussion, that you decided to make personal because you internalize any criticism of any place that I mention.

That issue lies within you, man. I'm here to discuss cities and demographics and I'll do just that.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2014, 02:22 PM
 
56,156 posts, read 80,230,959 times
Reputation: 12387
Quote:
Originally Posted by VintageSunlight View Post
Actually you did say exactly that. Read your post.

Will Upstate NY Come Back From The Economic Decline?

Cities vary? Who said that cities don't vary? My exact point was that cities vary, hence my comparison of Boston and Detroit. What topic has been beat to death?

I already know where I'm going and what my plans are. This isn't about any of that. It was just a discussion, that you decided to make personal because you internalize any criticism of any place that I mention.

That issue lies within you, man. I'm here to discuss cities and demographics and I'll do just that.
Look up the word seems. Nothing is personal or an issue, but this has been a topic beaten to death and doesn't have anything to do with the OP. All I've done is discuss information as well in regards to the areas in question in the OP.

Again, OP, where were you able to go within each city you went to?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2014, 05:22 PM
 
Location: Deep in the Woods
2,549 posts, read 2,655,711 times
Reputation: 2850
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
Look up the word seems. Nothing is personal or an issue, but this has been a topic beaten to death and doesn't have anything to do with the OP. All I've done is discuss information as well in regards to the areas in question in the OP.

Again, OP, where were you able to go within each city you went to?
I still don't know what topic has been beaten to death, unless you mean the OP topic. People seem to want to discuss that, since so many people bring it up. I'm happy to discuss it, I think it needs discussion.

Just checking out some Detroit forums, it SEEMS that you are the only one who thinks downtown Detroit is doing fine.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2014, 06:52 PM
 
56,156 posts, read 80,230,959 times
Reputation: 12387
Quote:
Originally Posted by VintageSunlight View Post
I still don't know what topic has been beaten to death, unless you mean the OP topic. People seem to want to discuss that, since so many people bring it up. I'm happy to discuss it, I think it needs discussion.

Just checking out some Detroit forums, it SEEMS that you are the only one who thinks downtown Detroit is doing fine.
No, check this out in terms of a Detroit: Model D Home -- Detroit's Online News Magazine As a person that went to college for a while in MI and family that lives there, you may not understand the dynamics of that area

We have discussed Detroit, Raleigh and different cities and their neighborhoods on various threads on the general NY forum and the Syracuse forum before.

Again OP, anything?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:



Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > New York
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. | Please obey Forum Rules | Terms of Use and Privacy Policy

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top