How about a realistic view of what NYS teachers do? (Buffalo: sales, real estate)

[homeward bound]

Smalltownusa:

I agree with alot of what you say on this Forum. But I think you may be misinformed in what you (and others) are claiming about teachers' workloads, economic situations, etc.

Many teachers (in NYS and here in Virginny) take part-time or even full-time 2nd jobs NOT cause "they can" but very much 'cause they HAVE TO. Their student loan burdens can be enormous, for many years. Eight years into full-time teaching, my wife still owes nearly $20,000 in student loans--and she was lucky enough to win two fellowships to grad school. Teachers who had to pay all their own way, from undergrad onward, often owe a lot more.

As has been noted here, and elsewhere on this Forum, many Central NY and Western NY teachers DON'T earn exorbitant or even lush salaries. They're trying to make ends meet. Partly so they can pay for their health care when they retire--which, as GenevaNative has several times noted on this Forum, is something many NY state teachers DO have to do. And many teachers in the higher-paid areas of NYC & Long Island have to pay the same property taxes and sky-high housing costs that everybody else in that region has to pay. Their pay is largely commensurate with the costs-of-living where they live, work, pay taxes & mortgages.

Plus, regarding the fabled summers-off point: First, put it in an overall, hours-worked-per-year perspective. Every public school teacher I've known works 60-70 hours per week during the school year. (My wife works about 80 hrs. per week on avg., and about half her colleagues in her department do the same.) Remember, the observable 8am-4pm teacher workday is often only part of a teacher's true workday. Many teachers work for many hours after coming home, throughout weekends and vacations, etc.

Leave out two months summer vacation, and, let's say, two weeks during-the-school-year time off (Xmas break, Thanksgiving, etc.). A representative 65 hr. teacher workweek (X 46 weeks) = 2990 hrs. of work per year. By comparison, take the avg., non-teaching job at 45 hrs. per week, times 49 weeks per year (assuming 2 weeks annual vacation plus about a week for Memorial Day, Thanksgiving, etc.). 45 hrs. per week X 49 weeks = 2205 hrs. work per year, compared to the teacher's 2990 hrs. work per year. That's a 785 work-hours per-year difference. That's huge.

Also, remember that even teachers who appear to have "summers off" may not. Apart from working on their classes to improve them further and incorporate new student testing or material-to-cover or teaching-strategies demands from their district and state, many teachers go to workshops and seminars to keep improving on their teaching skills/keep up with innovations in their fields. Their districts may pay for their travel expenses, but they rarely pay for their time. My wife spent a week last summer at such a seminar--and didn't get a penny for the 50 hours of work she put into that week. Also, at various points in their career, all teachers have to be taking courses to retain their teaching credentials. They're generally not paid for the time required to take the courses, and sometimes have to pay for part of the courses themselves. Also during the summer, many teachers are involved in meetings at their school, or their district, or with parents, or with troubled students in preparation for their next school year. Others are involved in helping to train new teachers at their schools. And both during the school year and over the summer, many teachers are doing extra-curricular things (coaching sports or academic teams) as part of their job requirements--and they're not paid for this time, either. I've known a lot of teachers who CAN'T work second or summer jobs just because their teaching jobs take so much time, and their economic well-being IS suffering because of it.

Plus, having worked as a truck driver, wallpaperer & painter, warehouse hand, graveyard-shift stock clerk (full-time, while teaching), free-lance editor, tutor, college program organizer, social worker, public relations agent for a large corporation, ditch digger, and landscaper, I can tell you that NOTHING is as exhausting as teaching. You've got to be so aware of so much at once, and on call in so many ways, and always gauging your effectiveness so self-critizingly, for hours upon hours, month after month, with barely a break and breather, answering to layers of authority above you while figuring out how to best meet each student's learning pattern and needs, and not only patient with demands but so endlessly GIVING, that it's a uniquely draining job. And for every one (rare) slacker I've seen teaching at the college and public school level, I've seen hundreds and hundreds of almost fanaticallly devoted teachers.

To say teachers take 2nd or part-time jobs "because they can" is not only inaccurate, it's also pretty insulting. It sneers at the huge sacrifice and burden that being a teacher can place on one's family. I wish my own teaching job was enough to earn my time with my family, but I sometimes go weeks and months barely seeing them. Even if you are getting paid well and you DON'T have to take a 2nd job, it requires a huge sacrifice--in the whole family. SOMEtimes, yes, I have more time with my kids than most dads can have. And that's great. But 30-40 weeks per year, when the 9-5 dads are home with their kids, I'm working working working. My family gives up a lot because I'm a teacher--ditto regarding my wife being a teacher, too. To claim that if we are lucky enough to be able to work a 2nd job while teaching = "We're greedy" or "Just thinking of money," scants the fact we're already hurting from all the time that teaching takes away from family-time, and that this sacrifice of time is NOT adequately compensated with money, which is why we need the 2nd job to begin with---if we can somehow squeeze more work-time into a week where we're doing 65 hours of work at teaching to get and keep that 2nd job to begin with.

Now, I'm NOT saying that, in some districts, NY state teachers aren't paid perhaps too lavishly. And I'm NOT saying NY state doesn't need to radically correct its taxing policies and rates. And I completely respect that every penny that a school district--or any other governmental agency--spends is a penny someone else--the taxpayer--had to earn. And that high taxes put EVERYONE's economic well-being and future at risk. But I am saying that it's very easy to misperceive what teaching really entails, and what its material/monetary benefits really are.

One last point: GenevaNative is exactly right, as I've claimed on this Forum myself a couple of times. NY State provides an incredible public school education. You ARE getting a lot for your money there. Nearly 29 years (ouch!) after graduating high school there, and 25 years after graduating undergraduate college from SUNY-Buffalo, I'm still drawing on my NY state teachers, classes, lessons, and strategies for what I do in the college classroom. I didn't really appreciate their professionalism and effectiveness until I was well into my own teaching career. But when I got to the third highest ranking grad school in my field, I was at least as well-prepared as kids who'd gone to the richest, fanciest prep schools and/or school districts in the nation's wealthiest areas. Now, I'm NOT saying that there isn't waste and excess in NY state's taxing and spending systems. And I'm NOT saying that such waste and excess isn't infuriating and criminal. But I AM saying that NY State DOES provide some wonderful return on what people are paying.

The task becomes, then, making the economic most of the public school's greatness by luring and keeping good jobs in and to the state. I'm all for cutting waste and abuse and sacrificing whatever can be sacrificed from state and local budgets to keep or make essential services good but also bring down taxes to lure and solidify business opportunities for all. But how to do that fairly and effectively is another argument. Blaming teachers so broadly (and unfairly) for the state's economic burdens and problems is off-target, at best. Some may be pampered. But most are still awake, still working hard, getting ready for tomorrow, for our kids.

[SkiChick]

Many teachers (in NYS and here in Virginny) take part-time or even full-time 2nd jobs NOT cause "they can" but very much 'cause they HAVE TO. Their student loan burdens can be enormous, for many years. Eight years into full-time teaching, my wife still owes nearly $20,000 in student loans--and she was lucky enough to win two fellowships to grad school. Teachers who had to pay all their own way, from undergrad onward, often owe a lot more.

Very true ... hubby has $16,000 left to pay off and this is after teaching and has been paying it off double time for 6 1/2 years. We've hardly put a dent in it!

Plus, regarding the fabled summers-off point: First, put it in an overall, hours-worked-per-year perspective.

There is no summer off here ... hubby has a seasonal job during the summer just so we can survive through it w/o credit cards. A teacher's salary isn't enough to make it through the off season ... especially with a family! Although I would have to say he doesn't normally bring any work home on weekdays, but vacations he's got piles of paperwork spread out on the table.

Also, at various points in their career, all teachers have to be taking courses to retain their teaching credentials. They're generally not paid for the time required to take the courses, and sometimes have to pay for part of the courses themselves.

The school has always paid for the courses, but never the time!

And both during the school year and over the summer, many teachers are doing extra-curricular things (coaching sports or academic teams) as part of their job requirements--and they're not paid for this time, either.

Teachers who also coach, are club advisors, or department chairs do get paid very well for their extra time. It's not required to do such extra-curricular activities.

It takes a special person to be a teacher and they should be higher ranked on the pay scale. With his education he could walk into an engineering job, but he chooses to continue to teach. We'll be paying his loan off until he retires at a teacher's pay scale and that's a stinky feeling! Well, there is a second opinion about this subject. I feel for you homeward bound ... teaching or being married to a teacher isn't all that glorious people think it is. But, it is also very rewarding seeing that you made a difference to maybe not all, but some students.

[itSmellsBAD]

In NY they retire and move to Florida living off their FAT tax free pension with BLOATED benefit package for LIFE.

[SkiChick]

Sorry if you think our teachers are doing that ... maybe you are mistaking administrators as teachers. They are the ones raking in all the dough leaving the teachers with naddah! Administrators and teachers are two completely different people and an administrator should never be confused as a teacher.

[VA Yankee]

Having matriculated from a NY school system and currently work in a VA one heres a few observations.

As a student I started many a school year late because the teachers were on strike...again.

I had to deal with Tenured Teachers who in any other enviroment would have been fired but because of their Golden Ticket the schools couldn't

Now I have no argument with teachers salaries in central Virginia, or the overall quality of their skills. I am well aware of the hours they commit above and beyond.

What I would question is why do teachers accept jobs in high cost areas if they can't afford to live? For current college students why consider teaching knowing the potental job/income they can expect? Would you invest in a career that you feel doesn't pay well?
I am not questioning the commitment of those in education or the job they do but if you make that choice don't come back and complain about the pay and enviroment.

[homeward bound]

itSmellsBAD, 2:35 p.m., Jan 22:
"In NY they retire and move to Florida living off their FAT tax free pension with BLOATED benefit package for LIFE."

They ALL move to Florida? YOUR PROOF? So my retired teacher cousin living in Queens--she's really in Boca Raton, but just doesn't know it?

How is a NY State pension not taxed in Florida? There are no federal taxes there? No local property taxes? No sales taxes when the pension is spent? No real estate taxes?

You rage against government controls of, seemingly, any sort. Are you implying that NY State should NOT permit retired teachers to move where they wish to--that the state should somehow force pension recipients to stay in NY state?

Define "BLOATED," please.

And where is your PROOF that retirees' benefits packages ARE bloated to begin with? Are they uniformly bloated, as you imply? So a teacher retiring from, say, Allegany or Tompkins County gets exactly the same pension as one retiring from, say, Suffolk County?

When you rage against "BLOATED benefit package for LIFE," do you propose a cut-off date for the benefits package? Say, making retirees pay for all their own medical care once they hit 70? How about 85? Given the expense of such care, do you really want the health care system racking up huge and unpayable bills for elderly care because benefits arbitrarily end when a retiree hits 70 or 85?

Why not just shoot all retirees--but ship their bodies to Florida, at Tennessee's expense? After first reclaiming from their corpses all the plastic surgery they got at NY state taxpayers' expense?

C'mon, man. Make a *logical* argument based on relevant, demonstrable, REAL *facts* that, in specific regions, NY state teachers are paid salaries and benefits that are out of proportion to other workers and unsustainable by NY state's economic condition, and you'd be responded to with respect and in good-faith. Fuming isn't thinking.

[iloveupstateny]

HELLO EVERYONE,

How about we just let this thread die because it is ridiculous!!!!! Any teacher in ANY state works hard. NY state teachers do NOTHING more special than any other teacher in any other state. This thread is just asking for the ridiculous and dumb comments by people. It is like saying a NYS doctor does something different than any other state.....or a pharmacist, construction worker, baker, lawyer, etc..............................

[homeward bound]

That's fine with me (I started the thread).

But you need to understand my motives for posting it: NY state teachers have been getting slammed by a surprising number of forum-posters for being somehow especially responsible for the state's economic malaise. I think that's grossly unfair and, at best, based on a very uninformed sense of just how much teachers work for their pay & benefits.

Plus, while I agree that teachers everywhere tend to work (very) hard, given NY state's especially high academic standards, I do think someone could point out what, exactly, NY state teachers do that distinguishes their work from work in other, less demanding states....

[BuffaloTransplant]

Originally Posted by homeward bound

itSmellsBAD, 2:35 p.m., Jan 22:
"In NY they retire and move to Florida living off their FAT tax free pension with BLOATED benefit package for LIFE."

They ALL move to Florida? YOUR PROOF? So my retired teacher cousin living in Queens--she's really in Boca Raton, but just doesn't know it?

How is a NY State pension not taxed in Florida? There are no federal taxes there? No local property taxes? No sales taxes when the pension is spent? No real estate taxes?

You rage against government controls of, seemingly, any sort. Are you implying that NY State should NOT permit retired teachers to move where they wish to--that the state should somehow force pension recipients to stay in NY state?

Define "BLOATED," please.

And where is your PROOF that retirees' benefits packages ARE bloated to begin with? Are they uniformly bloated, as you imply? So a teacher retiring from, say, Allegany or Tompkins County gets exactly the same pension as one retiring from, say, Suffolk County?

When you rage against "BLOATED benefit package for LIFE," do you propose a cut-off date for the benefits package? Say, making retirees pay for all their own medical care once they hit 70? How about 85? Given the expense of such care, do you really want the health care system racking up huge and unpayable bills for elderly care because benefits arbitrarily end when a retiree hits 70 or 85?

Why not just shoot all retirees--but ship their bodies to Florida, at Tennessee's expense? After first reclaiming from their corpses all the plastic surgery they got at NY state taxpayers' expense?

C'mon, man. Make a *logical* argument based on relevant, demonstrable, REAL *facts* that, in specific regions, NY state teachers are paid salaries and benefits that are out of proportion to other workers and unsustainable by NY state's economic condition, and you'd be responded to with respect and in good-faith. Fuming isn't thinking.

A NYSTRS pension is federally taxed in every place in the country. I know; I have one. Florida is one of many states w/out a state income tax, so there is no state tax on the pension there -- which is why people do retire there if they can afford to. (Of course they pay every other tax).

His defintion of "bloated" is wrong as well. The formula for a pension goes by a % per year of work, based on the FAS (Final annual salary). That alone is a misnomer: Some people who worked teaching before 6/1/71 can get a 5 year FAS (my husband did) -- simply as his intial salary was so low (under $6K). In the other half of Tier I, there is a differnet calulation; Tiers II, III and IV are all different as well. Smellsbad has no clue how the pension calculation is done and doesn't care. It is easier to just say it is bloated.

Salaries are, in themselves, incredibly wide-ranging. In WNY, you are darn lucky if you start in the mid $30s now / end in the $70s now. Of course, I taught for an urban district and suburbs are much higher. Downstate, they are much higher and NYC is an entirely different separate pension system. Districts where I grew up (LI) are topping out close to $100K. Those teachers will get the same % of their FAS that I do. They will also make a heck of a higher pension.... in theory, a person w/an FAS of $90K working exactly the same time as a person with an FAS of $60K for 30 years each, in the same retirement tier (Tier I) .....the higher FAS will make 1/3 more pension than the lower FAS. Now, if the person w/ the higher FAS moves to the same town as the lower FAS person.... the pension stays the same and the person from the pricier area will have more purchasing power. Since the south used to be cheap, that was a darn good reason for any pensioner to go there.... not just teachers ( the favorite target of smellsbad). Now, I have friends who have moved there who are working as the cost of living is going up!

[homeward bound]

Thanks for some much-needed FACTS, BuffaloTransplant!