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Old 02-12-2020, 10:24 AM
 
Location: Where my bills arrive
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The Hassidic Communities in Rockland are like a rotten core of an apple and although they live within the few communities they are continuing to expand. They have ruined the school district as you stated but posters continue to express concerns about expansion into Clarkstown. As a history lesson Rockland was originally part of Orange County but was separated because of the travel difficulties of getting to the County Seat at Goshen to record deeds, legal issues and the general day to day business. Although similar with Bergen I think Rockland as a whole has gotten very old and tired looking, 6+ decades of unchecked development has taken its toll.
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Old 02-12-2020, 10:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by 987ABC View Post
Rockland, just like most any other county in the USA, has vast differences amongst its various areas. And because its a NY suburb, the areas tend to mostly divide themselves up via school district. Rockland has 8 school districts. Of them, 5 are traditional suburban upscale, with pockets of high end stuff. One is a blend of urban/grungy/upscale. One is half traditional suburb with half urban minority/hispanic, and one is a complete disaster with hasidm. Its this last one that encompasses Monsey and Spring Valley, and gets an outsized amount of publicity. By and large, the existence of the hasidm community does not affect the other areas of the county.

The Wegman's pictured in this thread might as well be in Rockland. Probably gets half its shoppers from Rockland. Rockland and Bergen largely blend into one community with the Hasidm area being an island onto itself. If you blew up the map today and started over, Rockland would be put into NJ. The Ramapo mountains/Harriman State Park forms a natural border between Rockland and Orange that make these two counties strangers to each other. This is where the NY/NJ border would be if you did it over again.

With Bergen county, its upscale areas mostly run along the border with Rockland. A lot of the rest of it can look a bit worn or rough, although many of those areas are quite safe and fine. Although Rockland and Bergen blend into a single community in many respects they are still in two different states. Rockland loses out to southern Westchester in terms of super high end suburbia. Bergen doesn't have to compete with southern Westchester as much because its a different state and it gets a large share of the "I am a millionaire and I need to/want to live in northern NJ" crowd. Home shoppers with obscene money/income aren't as naturally pulled into lower Westchester as a rockland shopper would be, although in most instances, the milage and location equations are the same.
Just to help illustrate the bolded part, I remember going to get gas with an old college friend that lived in West Nyack and they would go into NJ, because it was cheaper and they have an attendant pump the gas. I literally didn't know we entered into NJ, because you didn't see any change or transition between the 2.
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Old 02-12-2020, 10:43 AM
 
Location: Deep in the Woods
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 987ABC View Post
Rockland, just like most any other county in the USA, has vast differences amongst its various areas. And because its a NY suburb, the areas tend to mostly divide themselves up via school district. Rockland has 8 school districts. Of them, 5 are traditional suburban upscale, with pockets of high end stuff. One is a blend of urban/grungy/upscale. One is half traditional suburb with half urban minority/hispanic, and one is a complete disaster with hasidm. Its this last one that encompasses Monsey and Spring Valley, and gets an outsized amount of publicity. By and large, the existence of the hasidm community does not affect the other areas of the county.

The Wegman's pictured in this thread might as well be in Rockland. Probably gets half its shoppers from Rockland. Rockland and Bergen largely blend into one community with the Hasidm area being an island onto itself. If you blew up the map today and started over, Rockland would be put into NJ. The Ramapo mountains/Harriman State Park forms a natural border between Rockland and Orange that make these two counties strangers to each other. This is where the NY/NJ border would be if you did it over again.

With Bergen county, its upscale areas mostly run along the border with Rockland. A lot of the rest of it can look a bit worn or rough, although many of those areas are quite safe and fine. Although Rockland and Bergen blend into a single community in many respects they are still in two different states. Rockland loses out to southern Westchester in terms of super high end suburbia. Bergen doesn't have to compete with southern Westchester as much because its a different state and it gets a large share of the "I am a millionaire and I need to/want to live in northern NJ" crowd. Home shoppers with obscene money/income aren't as naturally pulled into lower Westchester as a rockland shopper would be, although in most instances, the milage and location equations are the same.
And I agree with almost everything you said here. I'd use Route 4/208 as a good dividing line between upscale and the more worn out communities, with several exceptions (parts of Maywood, Fair Lawn are upscale, and obviously Franklin Lakes which is one of the wealthiest communities in the state, if not country).

I haven't seen that same level of upscale/wealth in Rockland personally. In Rockland, it seems to be in pockets, when driving around you can go from a nice area to a real dump pretty quickly (Route 59 from Nyack to Suffern illustrates this well). That's a lot harder to do in Bergen anywhere north of Route 4, where one wealthy community runs right into the next. Perhaps that is what the OP means by his post.

For the record, I much prefer Rockland to Bergen, and very much prefer NYS to NJ so this isn't an issue I'm dying on a hill over. Not a fan of Bergen County, as there's not much open space and the people are snobs. Just having Harriman and Bear Mountain parks is a huge gift for Rockland County, as that land could have very easily been developed into dense housing.
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Old 02-12-2020, 10:45 AM
 
Location: Deep in the Woods
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Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
Just to help illustrate the bolded part, I remember going to get gas with an old college friend that lived in West Nyack and they would go into NJ, because it was cheaper and they have an attendant pump the gas. I literally didn't know we entered into NJ, because you didn't see any change or transition between the 2.
Come on down, my friend, I'll show you around
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Old 02-12-2020, 12:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by VintageSunlight View Post
And I agree with almost everything you said here. I'd use Route 4/208 as a good dividing line between upscale and the more worn out communities, with several exceptions (parts of Maywood, Fair Lawn are upscale, and obviously Franklin Lakes which is one of the wealthiest communities in the state, if not country).

I haven't seen that same level of upscale/wealth in Rockland personally. In Rockland, it seems to be in pockets, when driving around you can go from a nice area to a real dump pretty quickly (Route 59 from Nyack to Suffern illustrates this well). That's a lot harder to do in Bergen anywhere north of Route 4, where one wealthy community runs right into the next. Perhaps that is what the OP means by his post.

For the record, I much prefer Rockland to Bergen, and very much prefer NYS to NJ so this isn't an issue I'm dying on a hill over. Not a fan of Bergen County, as there's not much open space and the people are snobs. Just having Harriman and Bear Mountain parks is a huge gift for Rockland County, as that land could have very easily been developed into dense housing.
You can't drive on Route 59 and get much of a sense of anything. It is entirely commercial. This conversation, at least as I have presumed it, deals with residential areas. Bergen north of Route 4 is more similar than different to Rockland minus its Hasidic areas, and parts of Nyack and Haverstraw. In Rockland, Palisades runs right into Tappan, which runs right into Orangeburg, which runs right into Pearl River, which runs right into .... Same dynamic as you are speaking of. Bergen in this area does have some consistently user-wealthy areas where Rockland essentially lacks, but this does not make such areas of Rockland "ramshackle" to use the word which kicked off this thread. Any uber-wealth that would tend to go to Rockland goes to Westchester, for obvious reasons. The pockets of uber-wealth in Rockland tend to be people with ties to the area, and want to live in a community that is more upper-middle class than uber-wealthy.
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Old 02-12-2020, 12:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by VA Yankee View Post
/\

The Hassidic Communities in Rockland are like a rotten core of an apple and although they live within the few communities they are continuing to expand. They have ruined the school district as you stated but posters continue to express concerns about expansion into Clarkstown. As a history lesson Rockland was originally part of Orange County but was separated because of the travel difficulties of getting to the County Seat at Goshen to record deeds, legal issues and the general day to day business. Although similar with Bergen I think Rockland as a whole has gotten very old and tired looking, 6+ decades of unchecked development has taken its toll.
6+ decades of unchecked development only occured in one area. The remainder of the county has not had any more unchecked development than any other suburban NY area. Student populations at all of the "good" school districts have been more or less flat for a very long time, and development has not occured since the 70s.
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Old 02-12-2020, 12:10 PM
Status: "Donate to Kyle at GiveSendGo" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: New York City
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Originally Posted by Bert_from_back_East View Post
Regardless of whether you cross into New York State from Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Jersey or Vermont, it is almost immediately evident that most towns in eastern New York State are more economically depressed than similarly sized towns that are only a stone’s throw away in neighboring states. In my travels, I have observed commercial and residential properties to be in greater disrepair in eastern New York State than in neighboring states. Homes where I presume people live tend to have trailers and other items strewn about the property, which is something you do not typically observe in Connecticut or Vermont. Non-tourist-centric towns and villages in eastern New York State generally have a higher concentration of vacant storefronts and abandoned buildings than elsewhere in the Northeast. Also, non-urban eastern New York State seems to have poorer, more neglected infrastructure than neighboring states, giving the area an even more rundown appearance.

For those of you who either live in New York State and/or are familiar with this phenomenon, could you please elaborate on this issue and explain why it exists?
I asked and answered that for myself a long time ago and it's very simple. NYC takes up all the State's attention and "upstate" is completely neglected. You can see this so clearly at the NY/Vermont border. You go from a depressing, downtrodden place to a vibrant, lively place.

It's neglect, that's all.
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Old 02-12-2020, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Where my bills arrive
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Originally Posted by 987ABC View Post
6+ decades of unchecked development only occured in one area. The remainder of the county has not had any more unchecked development than any other suburban NY area. Student populations at all of the "good" school districts have been more or less flat for a very long time, and development has not occured since the 70s.
I never said that Rockland was the only one with the development. Riding on 59 from Suffern to West Nyack a few months ago it all looks very bleak, having been living away for some time you see how worn out and tired the place looks. Other areas update and refresh every so many years the New City Shopping Centers last had a face lift in what 82? I did see where they finally allowed something into the Beirut, I mean Bradlees Shopping Center after sitting the way it did for how many decades....

School growth may be flat but there seems to be a lot of infill projects both residential and commercial and no cohesion of design.
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Old 02-12-2020, 01:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by VA Yankee View Post
I never said that Rockland was the only one with the development. Riding on 59 from Suffern to West Nyack a few months ago it all looks very bleak, having been living away for some time you see how worn out and tired the place looks. Other areas update and refresh every so many years the New City Shopping Centers last had a face lift in what 82? I did see where they finally allowed something into the Beirut, I mean Bradlees Shopping Center after sitting the way it did for how many decades....

School growth may be flat but there seems to be a lot of infill projects both residential and commercial and no cohesion of design.
I don't know what an "infill project" is. Can you give me an example?

Riding on 59 from Suffern to West Nyack takes you through Monsey where the Hasidm are, and Spring Valley, where it is 100% minority - both in the East Ramapo SD, which everyone agrees has problems. Once you get past that area (as you are moving east) it becomes very typical big box-suburban-shopping strip. I don't think anyone would say it looks bleak. Is it going to look "older" than similar areas in North Carolina, Florida, etc.? Yes, of course. Those areas are by and large newer. The area we are speaking of (and really, it is just one long big box store highway) is one of the original of its kind. No different in look today than similar roads/highways in New Jersey, Westchester, Long Island, and other older suburban areas along the northeast I-95 corridor. As for Rt 59 in the Village of Suffern and the remainder of the Suffern School District, it has mostly been unchanged for decades, which is not a bad thing in my opinion. Again, it doesn't have a "it was just built yesterday" look to it you will find in newly developed areas elsewhere in the country, but it compares favorably to similar areas in the remainder of suburban NY and suburban Boston/Phllly/Baltimore/DC.

Regarding New City, which is no where near Rt 59, it is hard to know if you are referring to something in particular called the "New City Shopping Centers" - no one knows the real names for these things - or if you are generically referring to shopping in New City in general. If the later, many of the shopping areas in New City have received in recent years the exact type of facelift you seem to desire. Maybe you haven't been there in a while?? Most of main street has been refreshed, as have some of the strip malls south of New Hempstead Rd, and as you have indicated, the entire Bradlees complex is very modern and clean looking. Since stop n shop has been in there this has been true. This is well over 10 years.

It is hard to discern your point. If its that the shopping centers look older than more newly built ones in other regions, than yes, I agree. But this is hardly news-worthy. They compare favorably to similar in other northeast suburban areas, which is the only thing that is relevant. In all my years I have never heard one person complain that a store needed an exterior facelift, although I am sure everyone would agree if pressed on the issue.
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Old 02-12-2020, 07:04 PM
 
Location: Where my bills arrive
10,500 posts, read 10,941,183 times
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Originally Posted by 987ABC View Post
I don't know what an "infill project" is. Can you give me an example?

Riding on 59 from Suffern to West Nyack takes you through Monsey where the Hasidm are, and Spring Valley, where it is 100% minority - both in the East Ramapo SD, which everyone agrees has problems. Once you get past that area (as you are moving east) it becomes very typical big box-suburban-shopping strip. I don't think anyone would say it looks bleak. Is it going to look "older" than similar areas in North Carolina, Florida, etc.? Yes, of course. Those areas are by and large newer. The area we are speaking of (and really, it is just one long big box store highway) is one of the original of its kind. No different in look today than similar roads/highways in New Jersey, Westchester, Long Island, and other older suburban areas along the northeast I-95 corridor. As for Rt 59 in the Village of Suffern and the remainder of the Suffern School District, it has mostly been unchanged for decades, which is not a bad thing in my opinion. Again, it doesn't have a "it was just built yesterday" look to it you will find in newly developed areas elsewhere in the country, but it compares favorably to similar areas in the remainder of suburban NY and suburban Boston/Phllly/Baltimore/DC.

Regarding New City, which is no where near Rt 59, it is hard to know if you are referring to something in particular called the "New City Shopping Centers" - no one knows the real names for these things - or if you are generically referring to shopping in New City in general. If the later, many of the shopping areas in New City have received in recent years the exact type of facelift you seem to desire. Maybe you haven't been there in a while?? Most of main street has been refreshed, as have some of the strip malls south of New Hempstead Rd, and as you have indicated, the entire Bradlees complex is very modern and clean looking. Since stop n shop has been in there this has been true. This is well over 10 years.

It is hard to discern your point. If its that the shopping centers look older than more newly built ones in other regions, than yes, I agree. But this is hardly news-worthy. They compare favorably to similar in other northeast suburban areas, which is the only thing that is relevant. In all my years I have never heard one person complain that a store needed an exterior facelift, although I am sure everyone would agree if pressed on the issue.
Infill is where you take previously undeveloped lots that acted as buffers and allow development, or allow expansion of existing buildings beyond their original zoning, or put small housing groups on land that was not suitable the first time around Example Infill Business: North main street, New Hempstead road in New City. North Main Street Spring Valley, Rt 59 Spring Valley. Infill Homes: Ash Court New City, Monsey, New Square, Kaiser, Airmont .

You can't discount all of the Spring Valley/Monsey as 100% minority, most of them would be classified as European in origin and that doesn't excuse the decay, over development and the general appearance of 3rd world that permeates many parts of those towns.

I know New City is not near Rt 59 I was born/raised there. New City Shopping Center is officially known as Clarkstown Plaza. I was through last October and saw where Main Street has finally been updated but the concrete vagina is still on the courthouse lawn... How long have you lived there?

Been living away a lot of year We are used to shopping centers refreshing their look about every 10 years and for too long New City hasn't. Bradlees sat like a bombed out shell for what 12-15 years or longer? No one was worthy to move in there so it sat and sat when the UA Cinema was torn down and the small strip center went in there was acres of broken pavement around it and one of the shabbiest McDonalds I ever saw. Shopping centers here are always in completion with new localities that get built which is why they keep their appearance updated most of the shopping areas in the county that I knew were established decades ago, and other than adding onto them not much has changed. I don't know what's funnier the fact that the Nanuet Mall was built in a swampy area or that they did the same thing again with the monstrosity in West Nyack...
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