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Regardless of whether you cross into New York State from Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Jersey or Vermont, it is almost immediately evident that most towns in eastern New York State are more economically depressed than similarly sized towns that are only a stone’s throw away in neighboring states. In my travels, I have observed commercial and residential properties to be in greater disrepair in eastern New York State than in neighboring states. Homes where I presume people live tend to have trailers and other items strewn about the property, which is something you do not typically observe in Connecticut or Vermont. Non-tourist-centric towns and villages in eastern New York State generally have a higher concentration of vacant storefronts and abandoned buildings than elsewhere in the Northeast. Also, non-urban eastern New York State seems to have poorer, more neglected infrastructure than neighboring states, giving the area an even more rundown appearance.
For those of you who either live in New York State and/or are familiar with this phenomenon, could you please elaborate on this issue and explain why it exists?
Regardless of whether you cross into New York State from Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Jersey or Vermont, it is almost immediately evident that most towns in eastern New York State are more economically depressed than similarly sized towns that are only a stone’s throw away in neighboring states. In my travels, I have observed commercial and residential properties to be in greater disrepair in eastern New York State than in neighboring states. Homes where I presume people live tend to have trailers and other items strewn about the property, which is something you do not typically observe in Connecticut or Vermont. Non-tourist-centric towns and villages in eastern New York State generally have a higher concentration of vacant storefronts and abandoned buildings than elsewhere in the Northeast. Also, non-urban eastern New York State seems to have poorer, more neglected infrastructure than neighboring states, giving the area an even more rundown appearance.
For those of you who either live in New York State and/or are familiar with this phenomenon, could you please elaborate on this issue and explain why it exists?
This is a fair question and one that I've thought about myself. Here's what I came up with.
New Jersey- simply more money there. Most of north and even northwestern NJ is commutable to job centers in NJ and NYC. The furthest flung areas of northwestern NJ are pretty ramshackle themselves.
Connecticut- more money, same as NJ.
Massachusetts- slightly more money, but there are many ramshackle towns in western MA. The Berkshires are well frequented by middle and upper class Bostonians and NYers. Some in western MA commute to Hartford for high paying insurance jobs (though these are drying up as they move to Charlotte).
Vermont- this one is more tricky. I've lived in VT and its very town-centric. Counties in VT are just on a map- they have no county government. So, there's definitely less governmental layers (which NY desperately needs to do, the whole village-town-county-state layers of govt is just not working in 2020). VT also gets hoards of tourists, so they maintain a strict code on development, especially tacky development (no billboards, no neon, no signs over a certain height). VT is the most authentically preserved state in the country. There's almost no Walmarts- this helps the small towns thrive. Montpelier is the largest city in the US without a McDonalds. People in VT are very community oriented, and they'd rather go to Bob's Hardware store or Jane's Diner than Home Depot or McDonalds. In fact, it is frowned upon when you go to chain stores. People there hate them. NY just doesn't have that same sense of community. Dare I say even Bernie Sanders has something to do with this- VT in some ways is a somewhat democratic socialist state.
You didn't mention PA but I'll bring it up- its even more ramshackle than NY in many ways.
Regardless of whether you cross into New York State from Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Jersey or Vermont, it is almost immediately evident that most towns in eastern New York State are more economically depressed than similarly sized towns that are only a stone’s throw away in neighboring states. In my travels, I have observed commercial and residential properties to be in greater disrepair in eastern New York State than in neighboring states. Homes where I presume people live tend to have trailers and other items strewn about the property, which is something you do not typically observe in Connecticut or Vermont. Non-tourist-centric towns and villages in eastern New York State generally have a higher concentration of vacant storefronts and abandoned buildings than elsewhere in the Northeast. Also, non-urban eastern New York State seems to have poorer, more neglected infrastructure than neighboring states, giving the area an even more rundown appearance.
For those of you who either live in New York State and/or are familiar with this phenomenon, could you please elaborate on this issue and explain why it exists?
I've always thought that upstate NY's and VT's and PA's history of being made up of mostly agriculture communities/low paying jobs contributed to how the areas appear "materially" on the outside.
States like CT, NJ, and MA are much more compact and see more widespread urban areas. More money concentrated in smaller areas type of thing.
As the other poster above me stated, western MA is very much like upstate NY in terms of poverty/bleakness.
This is a fair question and one that I've thought about myself. Here's what I came up with.
New Jersey- simply more money there. Most of north and even northwestern NJ is commutable to job centers in NJ and NYC. The furthest flung areas of northwestern NJ are pretty ramshackle themselves.
Connecticut- more money, same as NJ.
Massachusetts- slightly more money, but there are many ramshackle towns in western MA. The Berkshires are well frequented by middle and upper class Bostonians and NYers. Some in western MA commute to Hartford for high paying insurance jobs (though these are drying up as they move to Charlotte).
Vermont- this one is more tricky. I've lived in VT and its very town-centric. Counties in VT are just on a map- they have no county government. So, there's definitely less governmental layers (which NY desperately needs to do, the whole village-town-county-state layers of govt is just not working in 2020). VT also gets hoards of tourists, so they maintain a strict code on development, especially tacky development (no billboards, no neon, no signs over a certain height). VT is the most authentically preserved state in the country. There's almost no Walmarts- this helps the small towns thrive. Montpelier is the largest city in the US without a McDonalds. People in VT are very community oriented, and they'd rather go to Bob's Hardware store or Jane's Diner than Home Depot or McDonalds. In fact, it is frowned upon when you go to chain stores. People there hate them. NY just doesn't have that same sense of community. Dare I say even Bernie Sanders has something to do with this- VT in some ways is a somewhat democratic socialist state.
You didn't mention PA but I'll bring it up- its even more ramshackle than NY in many ways.
I was going to say an interesting way to look at this is that those states have their most affluent regions, except for MA, near the NY border. Just to illustrate this and I mentioned this in another thread in the General US forum, but I was having a conversation with a lady from the Burlington VT area that mentioned how the Northeast Kingdom region of that state is poorer. So, this just comes down to where you look within these states.
It can also be a town by town basis, as when you say eastern NY are we talking about Ticonderoga, Whitehall and Hoosick Falls or are we talking about Chatham, Rhinebeck and Red Hook?
Also, are the portions of Rockland County really that much different than the nearby areas of Bergen County? I'm not sure if there is too much of a difference. This is a general statement, by the way and not towards you VS.
I've always thought that upstate NY's and VT's and PA's history of being made up of mostly agriculture communities/low paying jobs contributed to how the areas appear "materially" on the outside.
States like CT, NJ, and MA are much more compact and see more widespread urban areas. More money concentrated in smaller areas type of thing.
As the other poster above me stated, western MA is very much like upstate NY in terms of poverty/bleakness.
Upstate NY's history of manufacturing and the presence of the Erie Canal actually allowed it to be quite prosperous. Even with the more rustic rural areas Upstate, you also still have your share of small town, stable, if not affluent communities too. Same could even be said about the cities as well.
Upstate NY's history of manufacturing and the presence of the Erie Canal actually allowed it to be quite prosperous. Even with the more rustic rural areas Upstate, you also still have your share of small town, stable, if not affluent communities too. Same could even be said about the cities as well.
Yes, and a lot of these small towns, villages, while having some industry of their own, are bedroom communities. Observe the Monroe County line, outbound, 490 East, 490 West, 390 South, 104 East expressways are all jammed late afternoons
Regardless of whether you cross into New York State from Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Jersey or Vermont, it is almost immediately evident that most towns in eastern New York State are more economically depressed than similarly sized towns that are only a stone’s throw away in neighboring states. In my travels, I have observed commercial and residential properties to be in greater disrepair in eastern New York State than in neighboring states. Homes where I presume people live tend to have trailers and other items strewn about the property, which is something you do not typically observe in Connecticut or Vermont. Non-tourist-centric towns and villages in eastern New York State generally have a higher concentration of vacant storefronts and abandoned buildings than elsewhere in the Northeast. Also, non-urban eastern New York State seems to have poorer, more neglected infrastructure than neighboring states, giving the area an even more rundown appearance.
For those of you who either live in New York State and/or are familiar with this phenomenon, could you please elaborate on this issue and explain why it exists?
I would say it goes like this--1-Taxes are high in all of these states. 2- You petition the state to get some of your taxes back. The rural areas don't have the need for a new convention center, or a new sports stadium, for instance, so they never get the opportunity for their taxes to at least be reinvested in their own community. Consequently, their lifestyle is a bit more casual than us "big city" folk.
I was going to say an interesting way to look at this is that those states have their most affluent regions, except for MA, near the NY border. Just to illustrate this and I mentioned this in another thread in the General US forum, but I was having a conversation with a lady from the Burlington VT area that mentioned how the Northeast Kingdom region of that state is poorer. So, this just comes down to where you look within these states.
It can also be a town by town basis, as when you say eastern NY are we talking about Ticonderoga, Whitehall and Hoosick Falls or are we talking about Chatham, Rhinebeck and Red Hook?
Also, are the portions of Rockland County really that much different than the nearby areas of Bergen County? I'm not sure if there is too much of a difference. This is a general statement, by the way and not towards you VS.
Bolded part: definitely true
Rockland is definitely poorer and more ramshackle than northern Bergen County, NJ, which is very affluent. In fact, the difference is about as stark as can be. Many of those Bergen County towns along the border (Ramsey, Upper Saddle River, Montvale, Alpine, etc) are some of the wealthiest in the state. Many towns in Rockland bordering NJ are Hasidic communities, which are very dilapidated and poor (at least as far as reported for tax purposes, its well known that they don't report income).
Nyack and Piermont are pretty nice, but even those towns compared to Alpine and Rockleigh are quite a bit more run down. Once you go inland, it gets even worse.
Rockland is definitely poorer and more ramshackle than northern Bergen County, NJ, which is very affluent. In fact, the difference is about as stark as can be. Many of those Bergen County towns along the border (Ramsey, Upper Saddle River, Montvale, Alpine, etc) are some of the wealthiest in the state. Many towns in Rockland bordering NJ are Hasidic communities, which are very dilapidated and poor (at least as far as reported for tax purposes, its well known that they don't report income).
Nyack and Piermont are pretty nice, but even those towns compared to Alpine and Rockleigh are quite a bit more run down. Once you go inland, it gets even worse.
I was thinking more Pearl River, Chestnut Ridge, Suffern, Tappan, Orangeburg, Sparkill, Nanuet, etc. in terms of Rockland County.
Ahh, ok. I'm surprised by the similarities in income, because the "feel" of the two counties is very different. Especially since northern Bergen is where most of the higher income towns are. Seems like a lot of upscale shopping in Bergen too, like this newer development: https://goo.gl/maps/6RjUzWCBcD4Lv6767
Idk, Rockland County seems so hollowed out in comparison.
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