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I was born and raised in Rockland, and I always say I am from Upstate if im speaking with people not familiar with the area... I think anything on the mainland except perhaps south of White Plains is considered Upstate.
I was born and raised in Rockland, and I always say I am from Upstate if im speaking with people not familiar with the area... I think anything on the mainland except perhaps south of White Plains is considered Upstate.
I have an entirely contradictory view on your first point. When someone who is not familiar with the area asks me where I am from, I say "outside of New York City." Firstly, most people don't know of Orange County and secondly, there is simply too much ambiguity with the term "upstate" to say anything otherwise.
NOT a stretch at all. I don't know anyone here in REAL UPSTATE New York who says, "I'm going to Upstate New York=SULLIVAN County to go hunting or etc." .. We REAL UPSTATE NY people have about ZERO CONNECTION/RELATIONSHIP/INTEREST in the 7 DOWNSTATE Counties of Westchester/Rockland/Orange/Putnam/Dutchess/Ulster/Sullivan. It's ` Y-O-U ` New York City, Long Island and maybe northern New Jersey residents who have the CONNECTION/RELATIONSHIP/INTEREST with those 7 Downstate counties and who go hunting, fishing, snow skiing, go to the race track there, visit the resorts there, play golf there, vacation, buy summer homes, vacation property, get your drinking water supply from that area; it's not us REAL UPSTATE people and region. Sullivan County being rural has nothing to do with the fact that it is located in Downstate NY. DOWNSTATE is NOT JUST all heavily developed New York City & Long Island; Downstate has cities, small villages, countryside, very rural areas, farms, mountains, lakes, rivers, streams, wildlife animals, etc. just as REAL UPSTATE has the same things. What do you Downstate people say when you are going to drive to New Jersey or Pennsylvania, "Oh, I'm going out-west?" What do you say when you are going to Cape May-NJ or Atlantic City, "Oh, I'm going down-south." I don't think so. Some people like to think that New York City is the center of the Universe, but alas it isn't. So STOP THINKING in terms of EVERYTHING as being described/measured from WHERE NYCity is LOCATED. Look at a ` F-U-L-L `` M-A-P ` of New York State, NOT just your New York City area. It's as clear/plain as the nose on your face that those 7 southeastern NY Counties ARE PART of DOWNSTATE New York. Moderator cut: personal JUST LOOK AT A FULL NEW YORK STATE MAP = IT'S VERY CLEAR.
Moderator cut: personal I grew up in nj/li and have lived in syracuse for the past ten or so years. My family, friends and I often travel to poughkeepse for skiing, hunting, etc...and we have never once refered to it as "going downstate." It cant really be a different place if its only a couple hours away and the scenery, accent, culture doesn't change.
I also do not feel culturally or geographically seperated from nyc metro in anyway. I travel down to the city probably every couple of months or so, and have actually made it a day trip on a couple of occasions.
One thing I have noticed is that the upstate/downstate split is usually most fervent with the older generations. My grandparents, who are life long upstaters, and my parents who both grew up in upstate, also share some of the same sentiments as the above poster.
The younger generation is different though. Those 40 and under really do not see a split between upstate and downstate. sure, the names still exist but this is more due to the unfortunate naming of the city and the state the same thing. I think that is what drives most of this "what is upstate" stuff...its just old timers who wont let old grudges go, the younger generation thinks of new york as one whole state and not two seperate ones.
Moderator cut: personal I grew up in nj/li and have lived in syracuse for the past ten or so years. My family, friends and I often travel to poughkeepse for skiing, hunting, etc...and we have never once refered to it as "going downstate." It cant really be a different place if its only a couple hours away and the scenery, accent, culture doesn't change.
I also do not feel culturally or geographically seperated from nyc metro in anyway. I travel down to the city probably every couple of months or so, and have actually made it a day trip on a couple of occasions.
One thing I have noticed is that the upstate/downstate split is usually most fervent with the older generations. My grandparents, who are life long upstaters, and my parents who both grew up in upstate, also share some of the same sentiments as the above poster.
The younger generation is different though. Those 40 and under really do not see a split between upstate and downstate. sure, the names still exist but this is more due to the unfortunate naming of the city and the state the same thing. I think that is what drives most of this "what is upstate" stuff...its just old timers who wont let old grudges go, the younger generation thinks of new york as one whole state and not two seperate ones.
I agree with this. There is something about the older generation that is less knowledgeable despite being older. Some of them like to stereotype for no good reason. After meeting people at college, traveling, out and about, etc, I found that many of the interests, culture and hobbies of my Rochester friends and downstate friends were the same. Many even went on to say that the area I lived in reminded them of their place on Long Island or Westchester.
Those 40 and under really do not see a split between upstate and downstate. sure, the names still exist but this is more due to the unfortunate naming of the city and the state the same thing. I think that is what drives most of this "what is upstate" stuff...its just old timers who wont let old grudges go, the younger generation thinks of new york as one whole state and not two seperate ones.
I couldn't disagree more.
As long as NYC exists and continues to be what people think of when it comes to NYS, then those who have absolutely nothing to do with NYC will continue to have to distinguish what part of the state they are from.
I don't even live there anymore, but still play the "upstate" game when discussing where in NY I am from and this goes with younger people.
For those who don't know, the upstate game is when you start with the wide geography of "upstate" and then narrow it down based on region, county, city, etc.
Of course people upstate don't say that they are travelling "downstate" - if anything, they would say they are driving to the city, long island, etc. Just like they would drive to Pittsburgh, Vermont, Canada, etc.
People from Upstate also don't say that they are going Upstate - they go to specific areas, regions, cities, etc.
Some of the information I can agree with (such as people generally being people with common top level interests regardless of where you were born) - there is still a very true distinction between the two and it definitely still resonates with people who live in upstate NY.
So if you live in an area where people talk about going upstate to do things - you don't live in upstate.
As long as NYC exists and continues to be what people think of when it comes to NYS, then those who have absolutely nothing to do with NYC will continue to have to distinguish what part of the state they are from.
I don't even live there anymore, but still play the "upstate" game when discussing where in NY I am from and this goes with younger people.
For those who don't know, the upstate game is when you start with the wide geography of "upstate" and then narrow it down based on region, county, city, etc.
Of course people upstate don't say that they are travelling "downstate" - if anything, they would say they are driving to the city, long island, etc. Just like they would drive to Pittsburgh, Vermont, Canada, etc.
People from Upstate also don't say that they are going Upstate - they go to specific areas, regions, cities, etc.
Some of the information I can agree with (such as people generally being people with common top level interests regardless of where you were born) - there is still a very true distinction between the two and it definitely still resonates with people who live in upstate NY.
So if you live in an area where people talk about going upstate to do things - you don't live in upstate.
Are you part of the younger generation though? Of course, you do not have to answer that (nor am I trying to get personal) but you must realize that the differences exist only in geography now, not cultural and not as a demeaning way to look at someone. You see, the younger generation looks at NYC as a great asset and a wonderful thing to have so close by. downstate, for that matter looks to upstate for great colleges, outdoor activities and cites that are appropriately sized and cost effective to live in. Today, the "new" new york is one state.
Yes I am in the younger generation as is most of my peer group, friends & family that still live there.
NYC is not "so close by" ....... it's a long way away
Major Canadian cities are closer by - more average American cities are closer by ...... for many in upstate there is zero difference in travel in getting to NYC or a city like Philly.
I would also say that the main differences have always been geography - they are very different in geography, also very different in style of life based off of that geography
they developed completely different, have had completely different industries and different ways of life
recognizing this distinction and drawing a line for this distinction doesn't breed resentment - it's just a simple statement of truth
where resentment comes from (speaking as someone who left upstate) is that a lot of the power and decision making benefits the city often to the detriment of the rest of the state - it's the feeling of being an afterthought or having no voice
if anything a lot of the demeaning aspects can come from young people around the city - it's the attitude of "without us you'd be west virginia, ohio or wisconsin" - like that is some kind of bad thing to be
while a lot of the basic desires are absolutely the same - the attainment that makes sense for the different demographics is completely different .... understanding and appreciating these differences helps as well
I also would say it's a stretch that people in NYC are looking to live in upstate NY cities - mainly because it would geographically sever them from NYC ...... they look for exurbs and nice cities that they can still commute from, but those are not upstate NY cities
while we did have some refugees from the city move to our home area, it's very rare that you'd hear an established NYC resident say "jamestown is a cost effective place to live, I can't wait to get to rochester, that elmira sure is something great to live in"
the basic truth is that even though someone make like the idea of a $75,000 home that includes a yard, they typically hate the trade-off of a $32,000/yr job, grocery stores that close at 10, etc
you have places like Utica that have become new immigrant homes as those people have been slightly squeezed in the city and surrounding metro - so for them to get established they'll settle on a place like that
Ulster county has too much rural land, not much continuous suburban or urban development in the county outside of certain pockets (really outside of Kingston and New Paltz, a local is probably going to correct me) for me to associate it with the NYC metro area. There are a lot of transplants from New York City and visitors but to me a lot of it looks and feels like upstate.
I'm thinking the best boundary would geographical. The Appalachian Mountains cut through in Northern Rockland and central Putnam county. South there's lots of suburbs, north some suburbs but a lot more rural land. So, right around Bear Mountain and Breakneck Ridge would be the boundary. Orange, Ulster, Dutchess counties would be upstate counties with a bit influence from the city.
The green here are urban areas (dark considered the NYC urban area by the census, light green other urban areas). You can see there's much less urban land north of the mountain boundary I described.
you bring up some good points but my experiences have been much different. First, I agree with the idea that NYC dominates the state, both in name and in culture. But that really isn't any different from other states with a large city. for example, look at western mass and boston. People in western mass never consider themselves to be "less new england" than those who live in boston. this is the same as what I have found, again within the younger generations in new york. What I witness is everyone from the state viewing the state as a whole.
Of course, geography dictates the labeling of upstate/downstate, but the same exists in illinios, where chicago dominates upstate and the smaller cities dominate downstate. Size also dictates economy, so it is only appropriate that nyc is the policy center for the legislature, but a lot of wall street taxes make there way to upstate. And yes, there is always a "big city" attitude, but this is hardly unique to new york. hell, even in new york there are those from manhatten who look down on those from staten island, queens, etc... as being less comspolitan. But this is little more than hometown pride and nothing else. to say that people from nyc look down on other parts of the state is greatly inaccurate. Having lived in both areas, I have not seen any anger or resentment from either side. Just look at a syracuse game in msg and you will see all the nyc support that an upstate team gets, its incredible.
as far as nyc not being close, from Syracuse I can make it in 3 1/2- 4 hours; while this is not a commuting distance it is certainly close enough for a few weekend trips a year. I even have a friend who has season tickets to the giants.
Lastly, the cultural differences are not as pronounced as you think. Upstate new york and new york city share similiar culture in the same way that nyc and new jersey share similiar culture. Every city in new york is unique, but not as different as baby boomers (who fabricated this whole divide) would make you belive. In the end, we are all just different shades of the same color.
Of course, perception is reality and everyone perceives their surroundings differently, perhaps you moved away a while ago (not trying to speculate, just trying to see your viewpoint), or maybe syracuse is unique in this way, but I stand by everything I said.
Orange, Ulster, Dutchess counties would be upstate counties with a bit influence from the city.
So...where is the majority of our influence coming from if its not from New York City?
I've lived in Orange County for all 20 years of my life and can assure you that I, along with most that live here, have been heavily "influenced" by NYC and have near zero "upstate" influence.
We are in the NYC media market, advertisements promote NYC and city-related events, we get NYC radio stations, NYC provides our weather forecast, the MTA extends into our county - people commute to and from NYC each and every day, etc. I have never had to go "upstate" for any reason other then going to college.
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