Worried About Wind Turbines (Madison, Fenner: houses, lease, jobs)

[navinjohnson]

Originally Posted by JustSayNo

Navin, since you seem to be one of those that sees through the smoke screen, and are providing me a shoulder to whine on I pose these questions to you regarding the "survey", I mean excuse to pass the Turbines.

1) about 50% of the taxpayers have not received the survey-your thoughts on that?

2) What is your thought on the question of whether you are a full-time resident or second-homeowner

3) What is your thought on the lack of the ability to express "I am against ANY industrial large-scale turbine development in our town"

4) What are your feelings on the poor grammer and confusing structure, and hidden meanings, in all the questions?

5) Do you think, and I will leave my opinion out, that this "joke" is the curtain that the board is going to hide behind when they announce they are passing development? In other words, they will tabulate the answers they receive, using skewed questions, and state-the survey results clearly show that the town is IN FAVOR of "regulated" turbine development, so we felt, following the desires of the taxpayers, that we HAD to pass the development?

I am a cynical NY'er and I am convinced the board's mind was made up a long time ago, and they have been working on the right "excuse" to justify their actions. They don't realize that THIS will bite them in the butt, I think this peice of paper is excellent evidence for a lawsuit!!

I look forward to your response!

JustSayNo, good to see people posting again, but time is too short right now for a quality response, been working 7-12's since 12/26 and now packing to go to Iowa for a big family wedding.
This survey is just so obviously biased and bogus it had to come right from the windplant developers. Anyone and EVERYone who pays property taxes should have a say in this issue, Whether part time resident, full time, camper or an owner of raw land with a dream. This survey is specifically structured to get a pre-determined response from people that don't know any better, and no response from the more informed individuals. And yes, the only conclussion that can be drawn from this is that they want to permit industrial wind power and their minds are already made up. For this I am truly sorry.
Till later, Navin

[StillTheOne]

Hi everyone. I just read through the "Worried About Wind Turbines" thread, and would like say thanks for such thoughtful posts.

I'd like to say up front that I'm in support of wind power, and in support of wind development in my town. But, my town, and towns all over my area, are literally under siege by the corporate wind companies. They are pushing for ridiculously small setbacks (the distance a turbine can be from someone's home and property line). Our town now has two classes of citizens: "Participating Landowners" and "Non-Participating Landowners." The wind companies are stoking the fires to pit neighbor against neighbor. Anyone who even asks a question about the proposed wind installation is labeled a NIMBY or anti-wind. It's just crazy, and it's ruining our town.

Here's the problem as I see it: there just aren't that many choice sites for wind development in NY, and the best ones are already under development -- places with good wind, close to existing power lines, large tracts of land with few people. Now, they're moving into the second level choices, into towns with many more people, homes, and parcels of land. Now the dirty tricks and hardball tactics are necessary to make these projects happen.

What these corporate wind companies are doing is wrong -- wrong to try and jam a 100 mega watt wind development into what is essentially a residential community. Wrong to offer to pay for an attorney to write a town law governing wind development, as long as it's the attorney THEY pick, who will encourage company-friendly rules. Wrong to pit neighbor against neighbor.

My town is like so many other rural towns in Western NY: used to be all farming, became much more residential over the last 40 years as farmers closed up shop and sold off land for development.

The issues around setbacks are at the center of the current debate in my town. I'm happy to see that towns like Cherry Valley and Stamford have made sensible choices -- choices that will still allow for wind development, but development that is right-sized for their towns.

What interests me most are some of the early posts on this thread from Honey, who encouraged towns to be smart about development and to look for ways to do it themselves: better control, better siting, retaining more of the economic benefits in the town.

Other states are doing quite a bit to support locally-owned & operated wind development. Why is NY State not supporting this business model?

This seems to me to be the most important challenge ahead for those of us in rural towns: how do we do it ourselves? How do we stop our towns from passing laws that primarily benefit the corporate wind companies?

How can we play a role in developing much-needed renewable energy resources without trashing our beautiful rural towns in the process?

I know I have more questions than answers. Any thoughts?

[JustSayNo]

Still, thanks so much for joining our conversation. I too thank you for the thoughtful and well written post!

While I am not seated on the turbine train-I still see too many problems with the overall technology and method to say I am for it, I need to see some real statistics that wind will lessen our dependence on fossil and that the bucks it takes to build them is worth it-I do believe in finding alternatives, in individual conservation to lessen demand, and I do beleive that we NEED to do something.

Your problem is one of my biggest problems, though I have many other concerns on top of the political/big-business ram down my throat. I agree that the politicians and the energy companies are working together to come into small towns and basically give them no choice but to submit, akin to the garbage disposal business in NYC and NJ (wink). It is absolutely unacceptable how NYS is handling this, the state is allowing the shaming of its residents, the strong-arming under the name of "the greater good."

I too am interested in individual use wind mills, not turbines, and would be much more open to 2 turbines in my town to provide our own power for ourselves. Heck we only have 800 taxpayers, and probably 2 would do the whole town. At least the negative impacts of the turbines would be accepted for the good of the town, not for the good of NYC, which is where our wind power would go if the current plan of attack goes through. Even in this instance, in our area-big migration path for many endangereds and truly a breathtaking place to see-Siting of these monsters is CRITICAL to making it work. 1,000 ft from a home, school, building, or road is outragous. And the idea of putting up 20 or 30, which would result in the clear-cutting of MOST of our mountain ridges, is ALSO outrageous. Industrial development is NOT RIGHT everywhere in the country, IMO.

Also, a turbine fell over in Asia on Monday, yup just like a tree, the whole pad come out and the entire thing fell over. Now, if a turbine was too close to a residence or to anything for that matter, what the heck would we, in our small small town, do if one fell here? In Asia, they have no idea why it fell, and the whole farm is shut down. The winds were not high that day, and they think it may be structural failure of incorrect installation! This idea (that these things are not perfect and safety is no guarantee) is almost worse than the idea of being forced to live with 20 turbines outside my front door in spite of my extreme objection and to paying higher taxes while the energy company pays no taxes at all and makes millions (in the form of subsidies and tax breaks for the development)!

Anyway, I hope to continue the discussion, I think a lot as come out of this little thread

[looking4home]

Why should people who think wind turbines have no place in a traditionally rural, farming community be demonized for their opinions? These things are freakish behemoths, and are in stark contrast to the lovely rolling hills, green valleys, and pastoral farmland that have characterized upstate NY for generations. A coal-burning plant, or any other energy facility would be equally out of place, and would never even be proposed in such an area.

The verdict is still out as to what good these things will do in terms of producing enough energy to make any kind of difference. I'll always remember in the debate on global warming, what a skeptical scientist said, "Don't be fooled - there's A LOT of money to be made in alternative energy, and these people will use any tactic, including scare tactics, to make money." Fear is a lucrative business.

[looking4home]

I don't usually like to double post, but I wanted to interject another point. I live in CA, and the wind turbines I have seen here have been en masse in remote places that are not populated at all. I have seen them in the desert near Palm Springs, and also in a mountain pass called the Altamont Pass in the Bay Area. Both areas are near highways and are well-traveled but not populated. Also, both of these areas have high winds on a continual basis, so it makes common sense all the way around to have them there. Not so in the upstate areas the wind companies are trying to target.

Land and real estate is at such a premium in CA they wouldn't dare propose such a thing near residential areas. Plus, CA has such stringent land-use and environmental laws it would be difficult to find a place for them. Not to mention the litigious nature of our culture here in Cali. That's another thing that bothers me - I get the feeling that these slick salesman from the wind companies feel it would be easy to take advantage of the poor, naive rubes upstate, and to take advantage of their depressed economic situation.

[JustSayNo]

Ding ding ding, you win a prize!! Exactly what us anti-turbine folks are saying. The very same questions Looking.

Fear IS a lucrative business, and the wind companies' slick snake-oil salesmen are striking fear, and giving bribes in some cases, in the Town Boards. Indeed, they feel is will be easy, and has been in some towns, to throw a few hundred thousand at at town, and some to board members, and take advantage of the poor, unedumacted, naive rube farmers in the "vast wasteland" of "upstate NY" Poorly constructed sentance, I know, but you know what I mean.

I read an article sometime ago that in the Mid-Eastern Coast (MD comes to mind, but not sure), the best place for turbines, based on conditions, is offshore, off the shore of a VERY weathy community where several politicians live. Instead of siting there, the companies are siting in the mountains of WV, payin' off those poor mountian people to keep their mouths shut and to clear cut their beautiful mountains! Exactly what you are talking about.

The wind folks scare the town officials with lawsuits if they are blocked. But the Board forgets about us townfolk who sure as all heck will file if this crap gets through. Precedents are being set everyday, as more and more taxpayers defend themselves. I think it is more likely that homeowners will sue than wind-companies, but it is up to the local politicians to choose their poison per say.

Anyway, the bttle continues, as does this thread I hope

[GoldenCrow]

Just found this thread, very intersting posts.

I live in a small, rural town in NY, and the lawsuits are already starting to fly over this wind issue. Those who are "participating" landowners are being threatened with suits by neighbors -- and they're finding that their contracts with the wind companies do NOTHING to protect them.

And everyone is looking at suing the town: the wind company has made threats, the homeowners who dont' think they're protected by the law...it's a terrible, terrible mess.

The worst part is that this wonderful little town now has deep scars because of this issue. People who've been friends for life are sniping at eachother, families arguing, all manner of disrespect.

And the fast talking wind company people will just slither back to their corporate offices. It's awful. Hope it doesn't happen to you.

[JustSayNo]

Oh Golden, I hear ya!

Same here, everyone is fighting everyone, and the Toen Boards is hiding, eventhough two board members have signed leases, one personal, one faily member.

And, you are right, the toilet paper that lease holders signed eliminates any and all liability coming from ANYTHING on the wind company. The land owner is responsible. But, you know what, I have no sympathy-they signed something they did not understand without a lawyer just to get a few thousand per turbine. I understand their financial situation, I could use extra money every year, but really they signed without any regard for their neighbors, their town, or the future of their families. Money is not everything. In our town, us anti-wind folk TRULY want to see the farmers survive and thrive, we really want to help them find a way. They are a part of why we live here, we respect them, and we support them. BUT, they think we want them to fail, lose the farm, because we don't want industrial Turbines in this area. It is terrible, and has caused a great divide.

But, now we know how useless, and shady, our town government is, now we know who has a vision of a future for our town, and who just wants to make money and screw the idea of actully finding a way to boost the local economy for EVERYONE, not just the leaseholders.

We have exactly 2 shop fronts, one mechanic, a library, a post office, and a firehouse. Add a church and some B&Bs. There is so MUCH potential for our town, if only we could work together to build a bright future. That is all gone now-everyone is fighting and complaining and digging in.

What a mess. Golden I have sympathy and empathy. Hang tight and please stay and share with us more. It helps people on both sides to hear real info, not the propaganda!

[GoldenCrow]

Thank you, JustSayNo, for your kind words. I'll stay tuned.
I think you're right -- people do need to hear about all sides of these issues, and understand that it's about a lot more than renewable energy. In my town, this debate has made old fears and anger bubble up -- old timers vs new comers, farmers vs residential folks. It's a pity. The worst part is that it's the wind company people who are stirring the pot.

JustSayNo, I can't believe the conflict of interest issues on your town board! Do they still get to vote when they're making money from the project?

[JustSayNo]

Yikes, my typos are so bad today, I think faster than I type. Sorry bout that. Technically, no vote for them, but come on, just how dumb do they think we are. Our town, like yours, is old school, 4th, 5th generation farmers, etc. Everyone knows everyone and the families are all married amoung each other. Family 1 daughter marries family 3 son, ect. I don't mean marrying same family (lol). I think it is really neat to have such long-standing and wide reaching ties in a town, so I am not saying anything bad. What I am saying is that every "local" is tied to each other, whether they actullay have a vote is irrelavent. It is their opinion that will be used for the vote. The second person in question is on the Planning Board, not Town Board, but this person rules the town behind the scenes. A very vocal, very nasty, spiteful person who actually married a.........second-homeowner! So funny, the very people this person hates is sharing a life and home with said member.

Again, not a legal vote, but the board will NOT cross this person. YUCK, YUCK, YUCK. And yes, the pot is stirred between farmers and residentials, long-timers and new-comers. It is so sad, at the town functions, like the FD chicken BBQ, the tables are choosen like in HS-for or against turbines. It is just terrible, we would have such a better future working together, the children would have such a better future if we could work together to keeping the town alive.