Worried About Wind Turbines (live, legal, authority)

[honeychrome]

This has been and continues to be an interesting and informative thread. While the research and information the thread has led me to has convinced me that industrial scale wind-power is a bad idea (and a scam) for most of upstate NY, it's also convinced me that small-scale wind-power could work well meeting some of the energy needs on my own property. Seemingly contradictory.

JustSayNo, I have sympathy for your situation. Small-town politics can be truly nasty, and the upstate economy and desperation has made the area an easy target. Hard to figure out what the answer/solution could be, but you've certainly exhibited very good communication skills in these forums- maybe you're the one to 'reach out' to the 'other side' in this, say at the mentioned BBQs (well, OK, it'll be a while till the next one- or maybe not, what with the weather lately). Listen to them and they'll listen to you- break it down to the absolute basics. Most people fundamentally want the same things- a decent and secure life for themselves and their families, clean air and water, good food, blah blah blah, but it is in securing those things that we can all end up manipulated. Nothing corrupts (or confuses) like money, and the corporate interests are waging a divide and conquer campaign, waving their pocket change in front of a few key players. I don't know, if there is some way to show those in your community that in fact they have far more in common with you than they do with the salesmen and the lawyers from 'Big Wind,' well, it might be a tiny lever.

[JustSayNo]

Hey Honey, so good to see you back on the thread. I do hope your holidays were happy and that the new year has started well for you and your family!

Now, you are a part of why this thread remains informative, so I am glad we have continued to share good ideas in info in your absence!

I really don't think your shift in opinion and focus is contradicory at all! small-scale, personal use wind MILLS have been around for a long time, and for single residence use, or partial generation (depending on how much you need) these little guys work well. I too, would like to see that encouraged in NYS-personal tax credits, subsidies for initial construction....sound familiar? Certainly personal use mills, as well as solar, would individually lessen the CONSUMPTION from the grid, I think that is kinda part of the equation right? Sorry I am a bit sarcastic this a.m..

BUT, we all know what that type of program would do.......put control to the people, and ROB billions from the "poor" energy companies, the traditional and the wind. God for freekin' bid our allmighty leaders actually do something that benefits the people they respresent, insteed of doing things that benefit the contribution-making, hard-line lobbying, big-business of this mighty country!

God forbid profits go down for some oil, coal, and electric conglomerates. That can't happen....Wall Street will crumble, the economy will crack because some jobs will be cut, the execs won't make 10s of million to then go out and buy more houses, cars, yachts---consumer durables are the backbone of the fragile economic engine--the country would implode without it's money spending billionaires!! The old scare tactic of the economy and what drives it's very interesting and tangled system of checks and balances.

So, I encourage you to continue to look into residential use mills, that is an option that we here are trying to encourage the leaseholders to think about. They have a problem because they have to spend money to save money, where the Turbines would just give them money, and to heck with all the rest.

I would love, and our group has tried, to have conversations, information-sharing oportunities with the pro-wind folks here in our town. But, as I mentioned, as well as a new poster GoldenEagle, in the new thread about property values this issue has cut a deep and wide divide amoung residents here. It has opened old, and healing, wounds between "locals" (in this town that means living here more than 30 years-they are very clear on that!) and the "newcomers" (second-homeowners, retirees, and new younger full-timers from downstate). The problem is a nice and pleasant conversation turns ugly as soon as the "T" word comes up. In the beginning of this, I tried to have conversations, but I learned to just not bring it up anymore. It is so emotional, and the pro-folk have been led to believe that any anti-wind people are rich, selfish, lazy outsiders that don't care about the town. When in reality, us anti-wind folk ARE thinking about the future, not the present, and we want to build the town, the economy, the future because we are here for the long-term. We are moving here, not away from here as the younger generation of the locals do-they don't stay here, they move away to get away, to find better jobs, to find more excitement. They are moving downstate as we are moving upstate.

It is just a horrible situation all around. We are a small small town, 800 or so taxpayers, and less than 600 residents (full-time) and it is reasonable to hope that we ALL could be together, to work together, to be neighbors and friends and to build a strong, solid community. The wind-companies and town board took that away from all of us, just in the name of money.

Finally, thank you for the compliment, you made me blush And, I want to clarify that I am sharing what is happening here not to complain and make people feel sorry for us, I am sharing the info so other folks who are going through the same thing, or are about to embark on the battle, can read and see what is REALLY happening, not just have info from the wind-energy companies stating their strong values for the peolpe, the community, and haw great they are to "give" us the chance to save the world. That is the crap they spew in their propaganda!

Peace and happy weekend.

[JustSayNo]

Just wanted to pop back to remind everyone, for or against, to watch the video "Voices of Tug Hill" and 20 minute film regarding the Tug Hill wind farm. You may view this video for free on Google Video, here is the direct link:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...12870661666877

Be aware, it appears as if there is no sound for the first few minutes, the sound does kick in so either fast forward of let it play through.

I think this is a fair and balanced piece, and presents the views of the people in the area, living and working amoung the turbines.

Enjoy

[looking4home]

JustSayNo, two question for you today. Aren't there any old-timers/farmers who realize how these wind farms will change the landscape forever and destroy what is natural and beautiful about upstate NY? Are they so embittered about having had to endure a lifetime of economic struggle and hardship that they don't care and just want the money?

Also, as I recall upstate NY get quite a few severe thunderstorms with lightning year-round, especially in the summer and spring. Isn't there a danger that these huge turbines will struck by lightning?

Thanks for all the links, and hope you have a great three-day weekend!

[JustSayNo]

Just TWO Lookin? ah you are nooooo fun

1) YES there are longtime, 4th-5th generation locals that are very upset about this threat. They know and see the beauty and value of our town. They deeply love this place and are deeply disturbed by the prospect of the devastation and flat out loss of the gem that we are all so lucky to have. BUT, these same locals wlecome the new generation, they are excited at the prospect of a bright and long future, fueled by the new generation of residents. They are thrilled to see the old homes and farms purchased and restored to thier original beauty. They welcome new businesses and new blood to spark the survival of our town. They are proud that "outsiders" see the same things they do, that people value what everyone has worked so hard to keep since the 1800s.

2) WELL, we are about 2700 ft above sea level, the ridge behind our house (the target) is about 3,500 ft above sea level. We get wicked wind gusts (that are too high which would cause the turbines to be shut down) and we get NO wind at all. We are so high the clouds are lower than the house, in fact right now I can only see agout 6 ft out my windows. The weather is EXTREME up on our moutains, it will be sunny, and blizzarding, because the clouds move through so quickly. So, yeah thunderstorms and lightening are prevalent, as is every type of weather. And I would assume, that a 410 foot metal structure sticking up like lightening rods WILL attract the lightening (based on basic science) We do not get lake effect, but the weather is wicked cool around here

Peace

[GoldenCrow]

JustSayNo, I'm really impressed with how much you know about the wind development issues. Thank you for all the great posts, and for the links -- the Voices from Tug Hill video was very informative. Here's one a friend sent me today about the wind battle in Texas:

http://windfarms.wordpress.com/2006/...ke-wind-farms/

These large machines just should not be sited around people's homes.

[JustSayNo]

Oh Golden, I am so pleased you watched The Voices, everytime I watch it, I can't get over the true sense of remorse and sadness I hear and see on the faces and in the voices. And those folks are just normal, everyday, hardworking residents-no one is fancy or a NIMBY-like so many anti-wind folks are called.

Anywho, I did all my learning by getting thrown into the deep end, it was either learn or drown in a sea of ignorance is bliss! There really is a lot of info out there-I read everything-the propaganda from both sides-I have always read between the lines, and once I read a few things from the wind companies I got the jist of how this whole "game" is played by them. It reminds me of wall Street in the 80's with the boiler rooms, hounding people all day until they wore down, scamming grandmas out of their retirement funds just to make millions off of them without any morals or regret. The company that is pushing here is just that....an office on LOWER Park Ave (anyone in NYC knows what that means) without a nameplate in the lobby nor on the Suite door, and inside is a bunch of long tables with 20 year olds all on the phone. None of them know anything except the script......Scary stuff my friends, scary stuff.

Anyhow, I am happy and compelled to share what I have learned, and messageboards are my favorite because so many people can have access to so much knowledge and experience from others. And knowledge is power, so we all empower each other by being honest and sincere and open

If I can prevent ONE family from going through what my family is, I will rest easier.

Thanks for the link,, I iwll read now. I know TX is having a boatload of trouble, they have the most turbines, or megawatts, in the country right now and while lots of folks love them, lots of folks are devastated by them

[honeychrome]

JustSayNo, thanks for posting the link to the Tug Hill clip. I finally had the time to take a look at it, and it was quite compelling. I wish they'd talked to a resident or two who had leases for turbines on their land or even a wind-power company representative, if only to appear more 'balanced.' Likely it would've made the local voices even more effective. Then again, the wind-company reps may have realized that and declined comment (and lease-holders are bound by legal agreements about what they can say, so anything they do say will sound canned).

[JustSayNo]

My pleasure Honey, glad you took a look. I hear what you are saying regarding leaseholders/energy company. The first person on the clip, when the sound kicks in, does say the standard, canned "I love them." And yes, always remember, that leaseholders, or neighbor-agreement holders have signed "gag-orders" that will not allow one hint of anything negative through the life of the project, so if any holders were included it would be the same script over and over-which actually would PROVE how controling and manipulating the wind companies are, it would become comical after the 3rd interview. BUT, I think the real point of the video is a counter-balance to all the interviews the wind companies pump out-they do not include anti-turbine folks, just leaseholders, which makes it appear as if these things are gifts from God him/herself. So, it is at least a view from the other side.

[GoldenCrow]

I've been up to visit Tug Hill 3 times now - and have learned quite a bit on each visit. It's really the only way to get a sense of what these new, bigger turbines look like in operation. The smaller projects like Fenner and Madison just don't compare.