Worried About Wind Turbines (Catskill, Liberty: appointed, homes, neighborhoods)

[Its Not Easy Being Green]

Though I do agree and disagree to some things that have been said so far, I want to share something that I heard this summer. Over the summer I worked for a group who promoted various environmental programs and helped to educate the masses on Long Island about different environmental issues. On Long Island, they proposed to make the first offshore wind park. There are a few in Denmark and Germany and a few other European countries but it will be the first one in the United States. Anyway, while walking door to door, I met a young woman who said her friend in England worked on a wind farm and took her there to show her the turbines. While there she noticed that the cows on the farm gravitated towards the turbines and were always around them. Curious, she asked her friends what made the cows want to be near the turbines all the time. He replied that the sound the turbines made were soothing to the cows and it almost resembled a heart beat. He also said that some doctors recommend to their patients with heart problems to spend a day at a wind farm because it helps to regulate heart patterns. I don’t know for a fact if this is scientifically proven, however, I thought it was very interesting and thought I would share it. From the hundreds of people who I have talked to, the sound of the turbines is a concern that constantly comes up. I thought this was an interesting take on it and as far as I know they turbines spin at such a slow rate that the sound of it isn’t that significant.

Another interesting wind power fact is that while drinking green tea one morning, I found out the company who made the tea has their farm powered by wind. So, every morning I would find out new interesting facts about wind power and other environmentally friendly ideas. On one particular package it said that if one home is powered by wind it is equivalent to taking 27 cars off the road for a year. I thought that was pretty significant, and like previous people have mentioned every little bit helps.

“You can’t change the world but you can make a dent.”

(-<) <3 : )

[looking4home]

But what about the damage it does to the migrating bird population? Isn't it ultimately counterproductive to try and cut down on fossil fuel consumption, but then put various species of birds at risk? Like many other experiments in the name of progress that human being think up, they end up causing harm in another, equally detrimental, way.

[JustSayNo]

Looking..yes there are documented cases of significant bird kill caused by the turbines. But, it seems a lot of the pro-turbine people see that as insignificant or unimportant A lot of humans don't really care about animals if they get in the way of what they want.

It is my understanding that 3 groups are high-risk:
1)bats
2) Raptors-hawks, eagles, etc. These are at risk because they fly into the spinning blades, no matter how fast or slow they turn. This is important when the turbine site are on mountain ridges because the raptors follow the wind, which follows the ridges, and they fly through the line of turbines on the ridge.
3)songbirds-these are at risk because they migrate at night (I never knew that) and the lights on top of the turbines attract and confuse them and they fly circles around the turbines, getting cut down with each circle.

Our area is a place where golden eagles live the winter, and hawks and owls and eagles are seen every day, we are filled with raptors, yet the pro-turbine don't care, unless the raptors are touted in marketing the area for tourists( than they care) We are also loaded to the hilt with songbirds, as the area is mostly wooded and valleys-two favorite environments for somg birds. These creatures are a part of why we all live here, as well as the blue herons that live in the pond and raise their brood across the street.

Reality is, each side will take a fact and use it for their own opinion. You can see that in this thread. The pro-turbines will say the ecological, health, and financial issues are overblown and not true. The Anti-turbine people do homework and read between the lines and say the information on how great they turbines are is not true. A debate for the century for sure. The only way to be sure is to do your own research, go stand under one of these things, go a mile away and hear how loud they still are. Talk to people who have one next to them because their neighbor signed a lease. Remember, in most of the cases that we have found, leaseholders have signed a "gag-order" stating that they can NEVER say anything negative about the turbine on their land. So, don't ask someone who has one on their property-you will not get the truth.

Here are two articles you may find interesting, but the whole site, www.aweo.org, has good info. Please note, the sight is against turbines.
http://www.aweo.org/Sliwinski.html
http://www.aweo.org/Roberson.html

Here is a site all about documented effects on birds:
http://www.iberica2000.org/Es/Articulo.asp?Id=1228

[Its Not Easy Being Green]

Originally Posted by JustSayNo

Looking..yes there are documented cases of significant bird kill caused by the turbines. But, it seems a lot of the pro-turbine people see that as insignificant or unimportant A lot of humans don't really care about animals if they get in the way of what they want.

It is my understanding that 3 groups are high-risk:
1)bats
2) Raptors-hawks, eagles, etc. These are at risk because they fly into the spinning blades, no matter how fast or slow they turn. This is important when the turbine site are on mountain ridges because the raptors follow the wind, which follows the ridges, and they fly through the line of turbines on the ridge.
3)songbirds-these are at risk because they migrate at night (I never knew that) and the lights on top of the turbines attract and confuse them and they fly circles around the turbines, getting cut down with each circle.

Our area is a place where golden eagles live the winter, and hawks and owls and eagles are seen every day, we are filled with raptors, yet the pro-turbine don't care, unless the raptors are touted in marketing the area for tourists( than they care) We are also loaded to the hilt with songbirds, as the area is mostly wooded and valleys-two favorite environments for somg birds. These creatures are a part of why we all live here, as well as the blue herons that live in the pond and raise their brood across the street.

Reality is, each side will take a fact and use it for their own opinion. You can see that in this thread. The pro-turbines will say the ecological, health, and financial issues are overblown and not true. The Anti-turbine people do homework and read between the lines and say the information on how great they turbines are is not true. A debate for the century for sure. The only way to be sure is to do your own research, go stand under one of these things, go a mile away and hear how loud they still are. Talk to people who have one next to them because their neighbor signed a lease. Remember, in most of the cases that we have found, leaseholders have signed a "gag-order" stating that they can NEVER say anything negative about the turbine on their land. So, don't ask someone who has one on their property-you will not get the truth.

--------
PLEASE!!!!! Not to be totally rude but give me a break!!!! 85% or more of Denmark's energy is from wind power. Does the whole country of Denmark not care about animals??? Or do they not have any birds in Denmark????? Do you really think that all of the CO2 that is placed into the air is good for the birds, bats, and raptor-hawks….?? Birds fly into windows, cars, houses, etc and no one complains about that. Studies are being done to show that birds avoid the turbines. I take care of a farm that has over 25 animals; including birds, ducks, etc so don't tell me I don't care about animals!!

Tell me, "just say no" what do you want to do about global warming?? What is your plan to stop pollution of our environment? Would you like to keep using up the world's fossil fuels?? How about some nice nuclear energy... that sounds like a good idea, I heard Chernobyl had great experiences with that one. I'm sorry for the mean sarcasm but I hate how close minded and apathetic people can be. Why don't you go and stand near a wind turbine. The noise is not that "deafening."
I'm sick of people complaining and not giving any suggestions. Wind turbines are used all over Europe and they seem to be fine with it. I was in Denmark and they are extremely proud of how environmentally conscious their country is. We live in the richest country in the world and we consume the most oil and irreplaceable resources. You can't rely on oil forever because it is going to run out. Or, should I make the assumption, as you did about pro-wind energy people that people who are against wind energy don't care about the future of our children and grandchildren. They must be too worried about birds.

It kills me that my 4 year old cousin has asthma and he lives in a family of non-smokers, and no one else in his immediate family has asthma either. The rate of lung disease and asthma has risen outstandingly in the last decade and it’s due to the pollution that we have, and don't do anything about. So next time you go and make these assumptions about us “cold hearted wind loving people who have this vengeance against birds and animals” think about your peers and lack of concern for not only your children, grandchildren, friends, neighbors, etc, but also the harmless animals who also suffer from pollution as well.

(-<) <3 : )

[ScranBarre]

This same debate occurred here in the Scranton/Wilkes-Barre area twice in recent memory. The first was when wind turbines were to be constructed atop the Moosic Mountains near Waymart, about midway between Honesdale and Carbondale in the Northeastern corner of PA. This is your typical rural, agricultural, lower-middle-class type of area where there's not a "McMansion" in sight (The commute to Scranton for work would be too painstakingly difficult in winter). Nevertheless, the wind turbines were erected, and now people are living harmoniously amongst them; nearby property values didn't suddenly nosedive either, contrary to popular belief.

The second debate occurred in an upper-middle-class suburban area of Wilkes-Barre known as "Bear Creek" (where there is indeed a spattering of McMansions). Residents here were much more NIMBY and vocally-opposed to the idea than those in Waymart were, yet those turbines have also been constructed. Now, there have been no complaints about noise, property devaluation, loss of aesthetic pleasure, etc., as many locals, including myself, enjoy seeing the beautiful windmills doing their relaxing thing as we commute in traffic along I-81 southbound near Pittston and the Cross Valley Freeway near the I-81 split. Personally, I'm a bit saddened that the energy produced by these turbines is exported to NY (just like our college graduates, but I digress); it would be nice for us to say that Scranton/Wilkes-Barre is "growing greener", especially in light of the sprawl issues we've been having lately. As for me, I'll be driving my Prius and installing solar panels atop my Victorian home in Scranton's Hill Section in the future and selling the excess power generated back to the power company!

Folks, these turbines aren't nearly as awful as many of you think they are!

[JustSayNo]

Well, as this debate here continues, I have remained polite. Folks, there are two sides, for and against, and we are not going to change each others' minds. I am NOT trying to do that, I know it is a waste. I am trying to add information, whether people choose to agree with it or yell "BS." The pro side spews lots of information, why can't the con side? Someone asked about the effects on Birds, and I gave some links. And actually, I have thoses ugly "things" on all my windows so the birds here DON"T fly into my windows.

It'sNotEasy, I KNEW what your opinion was in your first post, I did not comment on your post, I did not come back and slam you. I know your opinion, and what I think of it, and you know my opinion, and what you think of it. It is a shame with all the brain power and communication skills humans have, that things immediately turn nasty, without any respect or understanding of a different opinion. I know ALL ABOUT the turbine crap on LI, and the lying that Kessel is, as usual, ramming down the throats of the electric customers. How much real research have you done on that situation? Did you read the latest article in Newsday where it states The winning bid for that 40-turbine project is $356 MILLION , in addition to another $100 MILLION to build interconnecting cables. The wholesale cost that LIPA will have to pay for the power from the turbines would be $94.97 a megawatt hour, WELL above the $20-60 that LIPA pays now for a megawatt. It is projected that the $94.97 cost would increase to more than $150/mwh over the 20-year lifespan of the project because of a STIPULATED 2.75% annual increase. And, LIPA officials admit that this "plant's" average annual generation is likely to be around 49 megawatts, well below peak capicity of 140 megawatts. I could continue, but honestly, LILCO now LIPA has taken advantage of LI'ers forever, and who do you think will PAY for this project? The ratepayers obviously, not Richie Kessel's fat paycheck.

I am not against windpower, nor alternative energies. I keep my heat at 58 degress and use a wood stove. I am fully AWARE of what stupid selfish humans have done to ruin this planet's future. Don't blame me, I didn't do all of it, all of us did. What I disagree with is the "jumping on the wind bandwagon" scurrying to get all the tax $$ and subsidies $$ before it goes away, and just jumping on the easiest target to put these thing. And, for the record, these are NOT windMILLs they are wind TURBINES, over 400 ft tall. In my opinion, something this large does not belong in populated rural areas.

And I have stood under these things, no propaganda is going to change my mind on how quiet they are, I am not stupid, I can hear and see for myself.

I am thrilled that so many are so happy living with these things in there backyard/town. I am thrilled that leaseowners claim to be happy (though almost every company has a project-long gag order signed by every leaseowner so they can NOT say anything negtive).

And, regarding Denmark and thier turbines, here is an interesting article about Denmark:
http://www.aweo.org/ProblemWithWind.html

In this article it states that because of the intermittency and variability of the wind, conventional power plants must be kept running at full capacity to meet the actual demand for electricity. Most cannot simply be turned on and off as the wind dies and rises, and the quick ramping up and down of those that can be would actually increase their output of pollution and carbon dioxide (the primary "greenhouse" gas).


The real problem I have is that turbines are clearly NOT the answer we are searching for, turbines seem to many evils just like oil, gas, coal, nuclear. I have a problem with jumping of the cliff to hop on the ride without even knowing all the facts. The pro side wants to hear all good, the con side wants to hear all bad-no one seems to be willing to walk the walk of the other opinion's side. I am one who needs to all the facts before making a decision, I am not a sheep, blindly following the herd. In my research, I am still not convinced that the turbines are right for populated areas. I am entitled to that opinion, just like everyone is.

I welcome the continuation of discussions on this issue, I think it helps everyone who takes the time to read. I will remain polite and respectful of all involved, as I remain firm on the belief that all of us are entitled to our opinions and deserve resepct for having an opinion.

[looking4home]

First of all, the wind turbines are ugly. They are a blight on the landscape - they are hideous. why should I, or anyone else, have to put up with that? It's like trying to convince people 60-70 years ago that living next to oil pumps/derricks was some sort of symbol of progress, and they should embrace it.

No one knows for sure if all our efforts, wind turbines included, will make one bit of difference in curbing global warming (if such a thing even exists). And I'm very tired of hysterical, overly-emotional Al Gore devotees lecturing us all on how to save the planet and ensure it for our progeny for generations to come. I'm sorry but I can't think that far in advance! It's absurd, and also a bit egotistical to think we could even make a difference in the fate of the earth. But such is the humanist's view of life! I think we'd all be better off being more pragmatic and fatalistic about life and our planet.

[Its Not Easy Being Green]

Ugly is a matter of opinion, no we do not see eye to eye. I find the turbines to be a form of kinetic art, and really do find them interesting to look at; you find them “ugly” whatever. I’m not going to try and convince you or “just” to change your opinions, I’m over that. However, once again,

****what do you suggest as an alternative???? ****

There has yet to be an answer to my question. “Just” thinks I was bashing him, I wasn’t, I’m just sick and tired of the apathy that goes on in America. We have a problem, we are the richest country in the world, we cause the most pollution, you can’t tell me that we can’t do something, as a nation to help at least “make a dent” in this problem. I’m not trying to cure global warming, it isn’t that easy. I am saying that it is disgusting how much we consume and give nothing back. While going door to door one man told me about a grid of some sort that is put in the ocean so that when the tide goes in and out it forms energy. It is renewable, clean, and should cause constant energy. I don’t know a lot about this but it seems like a good alternative. Solar energy is wonderful but is it realistic to get every person in America to pay money to put solar panels on their roofs? Americans are too lazy to walk down the block, they have to take their lovely SUV to the store, and can we really expect them to pay extra for solar panels?

In reply to “just” saying that he keeps his house at a certain temp etc that’s wonderful. I wasn’t saying you were a rich lazy American, I was angry that you assumed all pro-wind power people had this lack of concern for wild life, so don’t go around making me look like the bad guy.

And to both “just” and “looking” not every pro-wind person “just joins the bandwagon and follows like a sheep.” I don’t care about Al Gore’s movie, I’ve personally never seen it. I honestly think that those who are against wind power may be in the majority. Not to generalize (as you two have seem to have done) but our country is run by rich old white men, and most people who I have come into contact with who are dead set against wind power fit that stereotype.

I’m sorry I believe that there is still some good in this world, I may be young but I don’t consider myself to be a stupid blind sheep. Best of luck to both of you, but for me, and unless you can come up with a logical alternative, its is wind power all the way for me baby

(-<) <3 : )

[JustSayNo]

ItsNotEasy-I was responding to the tone of your message, and the sarcasm, regarding my post that directly answered a specific question from another poster, who I thought was looking for information. I don't look at your reply as a bash, I look at it as your way of expressing your opinion. I was just asking if we could continue a good debate, that has merit, in a civil, educated, and open manner.

And I agree with you that we have a problem in this country, I agree that we do NEED to change our habits. And I agree that the US is apathetic for the most part, though the Internet has changed that slowly as everyone now has access to information and access to other people that they can work together with on a common goal. And, don't be shocked, I agree that this country has, and continues to be, run by a group of few historically "rich, white men" (this is changing however, gender and race wise, but attitude of those "in charge" is still the same basically). That exactly IS my problem. Once the country was founded, and government organized, things were looking up for the courty as a whole, citizens and their opinions, for the most part, were represented fairly-voting ment something (though war-mongors and robber barons did exist). For the last 60-70 years, this, I think, has not been the case. The citizens of this country, and their opinions and desires, are basically ignored. Decisions are based upon money and power, lobbyists, and contributions, what big corp. can do more for another. In the meantime, all us hard working folks-raising families, building our future, etc. have to navigate through the results of others' decisions.

This is how I look at the Turbine situation. The decision is not being made by the actual people that it will directly affect. I did not say you were a sheep, I said I was not. There are a lot of peeople in this country today that still do not make decisions wisely, they listen to someone else, do not get any information on there own, and just follow the herd because it is easier. THAT is what scares me, that is why I like to have discussions, share information, not only with the individual I am speaking with, but for anyone else who is listening (or reading in this case).

ItsNot Easy, I did not say YOU didn't care about the birds, I said that the birdkill is often glossed over by the power companies and the people who want turbines to go up. I'll give an example, in my town we had a presentation by a local audubon society rep. on the known impact on birds. This is important here, becuase we are lucky enough to live in an area that has many eagles, blue herons, and raptors and songbirds galore. The presentation was very balanced and not skewed towards pro or anti turbine. In fact, the Aububon Society has stated they are FOR wind power, so the town board really thought they brought in a ringer to shut all us trouble-makers up. So, as the presentation went on, it became clear that the Rep. REALLY REALLY thinks our specific area is NOT a good choice for placement because of the significant avian life and patterns we have here. We have a blue heron accross the street, raising young and living. We are the area where Golden Eagles winter, and the raptors clearly use our ridges to navigate-they follow them directly. OK, we were all very interested, and we learned a lot. Then the Q&A. A Board Member, who is for Turbines and has family members whom have signed leases to place them on their land (can you say conflict of interest) asks the two following questions: 1) Well just how long is the migration period of these birds really, I mean the turbines won't kill them all right? and 2)Is it possible to put the turbines up and just TURN THEM OFF during the migration to keep people happy?

I almost pee'd my pants. This is the solution? put these things up, and turn them off just to shut people up about the birds?

I ask you, ItsNot Easy, knowing this do you think our ridges are the BEST place to put 410 foot turbines that would basically clear-cut the tops of all our ridges to produce a meanless, in the grand scheme of things, amount of energy? I ask you because I am interested in your opinion. I know you are for wind power, and I want to know if this information makes a difference to you.

[JustSayNo]

Con't, because I am a blabber mouth
I think it is MOST interesting that the pro turbine folks (again not you specifically) wrap themselves in the eco-friendly green cloak, and turn around and call the anti-people treehuggers and bunnylovers because we are worried about clear-cutting forests, laying 100s of thousands of tons of concrete and running diesel substations 24/7, and the impact on wildlife and the health impact on humans. It would seems that there is common goal, but a line has been drawn and specific issues are being choosen.

And, as usual I write too much and will end with this, I am ALL FOR SOLAR. If I could afford it, I would do my whole roof in the shingles and be off the darn grid, I would love to stop lining someone else's pockets with my hard earned money. I think many people feel the same. Why couldn't the Fed and State take the BILLIONS of dollars that they are giving to the turbine companies (tax breaks and subsidies) and install solor in every home? Or at least give every home the chance to buy the equipment at low cost/wholesale? That would certainly be an alternative energy, would GREATLY reduce our dependence on fossil fuels, it really would make a huge impact. I'll tell you why-it would take the money away from the HUGE corporations and put it in the citizens' pockets and control. It would put the "oil mongers" out of biz. It would crack wall street. It would crack the political contributions and bribes, and cause the machine to be re-invented. That is a big impact, would take a lot of hard work and dedication, but it might change the future, for the better. It seems that the Turbines are the "powers that be" choice because they give the appearence of pro-active, we-are-doing-something-so-vote-for-me, activity, it puts billions in the pockets of the corporations that run this company-I mean Country-, and it keep the control and money where they want it-in their own hands!

I really, honestly, look forward to your thoughts on all this. I am glad the younger generations are not as apathetic as the older, and I know that you folks are the future of the country. I just don't want the same human errors to be repeated decade after decade to the demise of it's citizens.