Worried About Wind Turbines (Liverpool, Hope: college, calculation, organic)

[honeychrome]

Sadly I think Looking4Home's post expresses the attitude of most americans on the larger issues this wind-power debate is part of. I hope it was written with a sense of irony and sarcasm, but I fear it wasn't.. Until fairly recently, each generation generally sought to leave a better world for those that would follow, with hopes that the best of traditions and ideas would be carried on and that each generation would be smarter, healthier and have the opportunity for happier and more productive lives. Instead now we're leaving future generations with a legacy of debt- financially, environmentally and I'd argue intellectually as well. It's like the giant RV with the gleeful "We're spending our children's inheritance" bumper-sticker on it. Strikes me as the height (or is it the depth?) of immorality. And we've allowed ourselves to be convinced that it's OK to leave our kids with a big mess ("Oh, they'll figure SOMETHING out!") as long as we keep showering them with meaningless gadgets and 'conveniences.'

JustSayNo, I think your conception of our history is a little too rosy. From the start American democracy has been largely rigged to favor the wealthy (orginally there were land-holding requirements to be able to vote, the senate was an appointed body by, and to represent, the aristocracy, women & minorities were denied the vote for a very long time, etc. etc.), though I very much agree that in recent years the scale of the money, power and intractability involved has become far bigger than it has ever been. Late-stage global free-market capitalism and true democracy are incompatible. A vote does not equal power, money does, and the greater the inequities in wealth distribution the more concentrated the power.

But back to the energy debates...! A point that comes up in arguments against wind power, as well as most other 'green' or renewable energy sources is that there just isn't enough wind (corn, soy, etc. etc.) to provide a viable replacement for our energy 'needs' currently met with fossil sources. So OK- we've got two undenialble points: fossil fuels are finite, non-renewable (maybe the oil runs out in 20 years, maybe 200, but it will run out at some point; and maybe we still have a lot of coal, but it too will run out at some point), and the renewable sources can't meet the current demand. So that leaves us with the obvious option of curbing demand. And if we significantly cut down on demand then the viability of wind and other renewable sources increases. Of course, the debate on appropriate locations, etc. still remains.

But to tie the money/political power element to the energy element, if we as individuals make every effort to use less energy, consume less, we begin to take power from big business and those at the top. Thier power comes from us, in tiny bits. Imagine if there was a day when everyone said 'I'm not going to turn on a single light, appliance, drive my car, buy anything, etc. etc.' Just for a day. It would send a big shock through the system. Imagine doing it for a week- it would paralyze 'big business.' Thier losses would be huge, and it would be the beginning of a power shift. Anyway...

A book recommendation- it's not pro or anti wind-power, but has some interesting things to say on the broader issues involved:
Escaping the Matrix, by Richard Moore

[JustSayNo]

HoneyChrome, once again, excellent post. And I know I simplified history, I am too long-winded as it is, so I had to cut something I do hope all of us here know the history, and that is why I mentioned the war-mongors and the robber-barons. Heck Wall Street ruled in 1864, and only a select few were allowed on the street. And yes, owning land was power, and money, from the beginning. 100% agreed. And agreed that it has become much worse as capitalism reigned and grew, and society seemed to forget, or was told to forget, about each other. Capitalism drives this engine, but it is a dirty, unforgiving machine to most!

And I agree, we have more power to make change than any individual realizes, or WANTS to realize. If demand could be controlled through self-control, better, more efficient machines (such as cars, light bulbs, mechanical systems, etc.) would be deployed, AND alternative energies were explored, we may tilt the balance. Slowly, the big-automakers (and money makers) are FINALLY building better vechicles (and they did and do drag their feet on this because behind the curtain the politicians don't want better cars because it would end the gas industry), and we have better light bulbs and better mechanicals. But, each of these could still be much improved. And, if people could live in normal sized homes and drive normal sized vechicles it would use A LOT less energy to heat/cool/run.

So honey, I agree as usual that it is a tangled web and a Catch-22 if we continue. Nevertheless, my opinion isit is inexcusable to only look so far for the solution, and to choose the solutions that still only positively impact a select few, and negatively impact a great many. And I am so pleased all of this has been brought up, because it is all interwoven so tightly and I am not sure how many truely realize that. There is so much behind the curtain in this country, and I am amazed at how many still just go with the flow, believing 100% in what the read and hear on TV. It scares me that there is so much blind faith in the powers that be, still in this day and age.

So that is the crux of my opinion, my sheep analogy, my quest for all the information I can get. I never have and never will follow blindly, I am suspicious of information from all sides an any issue because, frankly, humans earn my trust, not just have my trust. So in a round about, and more informative, way we are still on topic.

I look forward to continued discussions....

[Its Not Easy Being Green]

Sorry to have to go back to previous posts, (you guys reply quickly, I’ve been in class all day!) but in reply to Justsayno, I didn’t fully understand where you were coming from. If you don’t mind me asking I was wondering what town specifically you are talking about with the endangered birds. I would never want to harm any endangered species. I do feel that it is important to find a location for the turbines, it isn’t good to just jump into anything too quickly. I think thorough research should be done as to how wild life will be affected by turbines, shopping malls, housing developments, etc. I think it is all the same. There is no way sometimes to get around doing some damage, but I personally think if damage is inevitable it should be as minimal as possible. It doesn’t seem like the brightest idea to put a wind park in the middle of a conservatory. (Sorry, I’m used to using sarcasm)

Thank you for finally replying to my question about alternatives. (I’m glad nuclear power wasn’t your option…. Haha jk) I agree, I think solar power is wonderful, but I agree with honey in that it seems a little too hopeful and not as realistic. I would have no problem replacing the money for turbines and putting them to solar power, but I don’t think it will work out as smoothly as you suggested. We live in a greedy corrupt world and unless it is specifically mandated for solar power people will find loopholes and use it to buy another SUV! I think, and this again, may only work in a utopian society that in the places where it isn’t suitable for turbines, solar panels should be enforced. Then in the places where it will cause less damage turbines should be put up. They’re really, as far as I can see no way to totally fix our energy crisis, but I think we have to at least try. There are just as many arguments against solar energy; i.e. it is expensive and inefficient, as there are for wind energy.

I wish we could do a sort of boycott as honey suggested. I really think it would send a wake up call to the politicians and energy companies. I think it is really important to write to local and governmental officials about you views on this subject and many more. (Please don’t send e-mails, politicians by law are required to open all mail but this doesn’t apply to e-mails.) The group I work for sends thousands of letters a week to politicians and if you ask them for a reply nine times out of ten they will write you back. As I’ve mentioned before we live in a very apathetic country and nothing will change unless we make the change ourselves. I do respect you “just” because your complaint against wind turbines isn’t just the aesthetics… that is one thing that really irks me… how people could complain about the look of wind turbines but when a power plant is put up or they see smokestacks in the distance it is so accepted that no one says anything.

But alas, I digress, if only my professors knew how much time I spend on wind power debates and not on my Modern Spain course… haha

Here are a few websites (hopefully the links work, one is from my university’s library)

<http://find.galegroup.com/ovrc/retrieve.do?subjectParam=Locale%2528en%252C%252C%2 529%253AFQE%253D%2528su%252CNone%252C12%2529solar% 2Benergy%2524&contentSet=GSRC&sort=Relevance&tabID =T010&sgCurrentPosition=0&subjectAction=DISPLAY_SU BJECTS&prodId=OVRC&searchId=R4&currentPosition=3&u serGroupName=newpaltz&resultListType=RESULT_LIST&s gHitCountType=None&qrySerId=Locale%28en%2C%2C%29%3 AFQE%3D%28SU%2CNone%2C12%29solar+energy%24&inPS=tr ue&searchType=BasicSearchForm&displaySubject=&docI d=EJ3010139244&docType=GSRC>

(Wow that’s long… it was an article on the inefficiency of solar power) you can try and type this into google or another search engine and see if it come up: Solar Power Is Not a Viable Energy Source. William Booth.
Global Resources. Ed. Helen Cothran. Opposing Viewpoints®. San Diego: Greenhaven Press, 2004

Sorry about that

I used this site last night for one of my papers for sociology, It is the percentages different countries that used wind power in the world, and it was very interesting.
<http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VMY-45JH3JP-1&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F2002&_alid=501667406&_rdoc= 1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi=6163&_sort=d&view= c&_acct=C000038923&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_useri d=696770&md5=ae6cabbc21c72eeebb2cfcc53ef52da1#toc6 >

[JustSayNo]

Ah, see now, this is what CAN happen when us humans use our special powers of communication and respect. We can wade through the bad side of our nature, human that is, and actually find out that we may not be so far apart from each other. I appreciate you doing so, and I think it is important for all of us to "dig deeper" into something before putting our flag in the sand.

That said, we live in Delaware County on the edge of the Catskill State Park. In our area, or town, there are less than 700 residences in 42 square miles. As you can imagine, mountains, wildlife, pastures, and woods (fairly new growth 60-70 yrs. old as the humans deforested it ALL once already-another subject) are the majority of the residents, us humans are the minority. There are no housing developments, nor malls, and we are the poorest county in the State. All of this is why we are so lucky to have such wildlife-they don't see as many humans as animals do in other areas. In fact, if I get a car a day past my house, other than the mailman and hunters not following the posted laws, it is odd. I live less than a 1,000 feet from the top of one of the targeted mountain ridges, so this is literally in my back yard, this literally will affect the wildlife that we have adopted as "our own," and cherish so much. This literally will change our lives forever, and not in lower energy bills

But, my location is not the issue, I am not a NIMBY, I am a NIABY - not in anyone's back yard. I strongly believe that an industrial wind Turbine has no place in populated areas, or areas where wildlife, what is left of it, will be effected. And I won't believe in Turbines in general until someone can prove to me that the damage done is far less than the gain. From my research, all I find is that the Turbines need to be suplemented by traditional means-while they add mgw to the grid it is not enough to ramp down any of the other methods. And I will not go into the cost and destruction to build, maintain, and decommission when the "trend" is over and an other, better alternative method is discovered, or the companies go under when the tax breaks and subsidies go away. I just don't agree with the idea of putting the Turbines anywhere they can be built, similiar to the nuclear plants and the smoke stacks-I am appauld by the assinine locations of these facilities as well. This type of development does affect the lifeforms in the area, negatively, and anyone who does not live in the area just can't see "it." We, as humans, tend NOT to learn from our mistakes. We screwed this planet up, and leave a lot of trash in space (just because we can) and in the waters and there seems to be no learning from that.

As an example, I grew up and lived on LI. When I was young, Suffolk County, and even Nassau, had woods, and farms, and fields, and SPACE in between houses. We could eat the shellfish and fish in the Sound, there wasn't a mall every 2 miles, and we could ride our bikes or horses in the road without fear of a SUV roaring by. We dumped LI into the cesspool, us humans, by our need of consumption, our need of everything bigger and better, our "need to succeed." This is a small example of bucks over brains. I see the Turbines as a large example of the same thing. Find a place that hasn't been destroyed by human development, and fill it up with human development because we need more energy, more power, more, more, more (in this specific case). The power lines, power plants, smoke stacks, coal mines, strip mines, de-forested woods-all the same, because the top of the food chain needs more.

We are where we are, we made our own bed, but that is not an excuse to take the way out that we are told to by the "powers that be." I believe there is enough brain power in this world to change the course, and I belive we have not found that way yet. As Honey said, as individuals we can make a huge impact, we don't need to be told what the fix is. We don't need the "fix" forced on us, without a choice. I believe this is what the gov. and power companies are doing with the Turbines. "This is how we will fix it, don't be selfish, sacrifice for the greater good, here is a few thousand to make you happy, now hush up and deal." In my mind, not kosher, not right, and NOT the solution. Certainly not something to gloss over and learn to accept. My "beef" is that many people form an opinion without all the information, they are swayed by the fast talk and snake oil (not specifically you ItsEasy), money, and they hear all the upside and don't search for the downside.

But, this little thread has allowed all of us to discuss, to post articles and information. It has given everybody whom is interested an opportunity to hear various opinions, and that is AWESOME. That is progress. That is how we, together, CAN make a change.

[looking4home]

All of your posts are great -I might not agree with much of what you say, but you (Honey, Justsay,It'snot) write well and speak passionately about things that concern you.

But changing things via message boards or even through concerted community efforts by well-meaning individuals, isn't realistic. As you all have noted, consumersim drives the engine of this country. And a very seductive, addicting type of consumerism at that. It's almost as if "the powers that be" - those behind the closed doors -have figured out how to placate the masses. Make consumer goods very affordable so that even those living on meager wages feel included in the capitalist food chain. My brother-in-law travels all over the country, but his wife(my sister) hasn't been out of California for over 20 years. They live a very priviliged life in So Cal (the OC!) in a McMansion in a gated community. Their main pastime, besides ferrying kids to soccer games, is to go shopping. Anyway, one day we were all talking about how the rest of the U.S. compares to CA. He was trying to explain life outside of their cocoon, and told my sis, "The rest of the U.S. is like one, big Wal-Mart".

What he was trying to get across in that sweeping generalization is that much of the populace is hell-bent on attaining. They are obsessed with consumerism and the cult of celebrity, watch too much mindless TV (and believe whatever they see on TV). What hope do we have to save anything, let alone a planet, when the populace is caught in the vice-grip of aquisitivenss? Consumerism replaced religion as the opiate of the people a long time ago.

Everyone it seems, no matter how poor, has a cell phone, the latest stereo/TV equipment, video game systems, knock-off designer goods, and all other assorted bling-bling. How are you going to get these people to buy into being "green"? You aren't. The middle-class will never get fully on-board because they are on a treadmill, are afraid of radical ideas, and too busy making money. And we have a real problem now with a growing underclass, namely illegals who enter the U.S. precisely to buy into the comsumerist lifestyle. There are no platitudes about wanting freedom, or escaping oppression - they just want to make money, and don't even try to hide that fact. These people will not seek the solutions via sacrifice you would have them make.

[Sonnenwende]

I live in Germany and there are a lot of wind turbines. I have never heard noise from them unless you are standing directly under it. The biggest argument anyone here can cough up against them is that a few stupid birds get hit by them a year. I think if a bird is too blind to miss something as massive as a wind turbine in their path, then I am not going to shead tears over it. Some people think they are ugly, but can't say that burning coal or creating nuclear waste is really that much of a better alternative. When push comes to shove, people prefer wind turbines.

Here, most wind turbines are put out to sea or on pasture land. Farmers use them to generate extra income and land clearing isn't an issue. It was cleared years ago for farming. Since farms are normally in rural areas, no one is really affected by them in terms of what little noise they generate.

I like wind farms and it is something that makes an area attractive to me and my husband, some kind commitment to alternative energy. I certainally don't see wind and solar as the complete answer to our energy needs, but it is a step in the right direction. Also, some places are obviously better than others for the placement of wind turbines. I am not sure either the top of a mountain is the best idea ever for one. However, if the land was rural, mostly flat farmland, then eh.

I like solar too, but in reality, like wind, it is only viable in certain areas. If you live in Phoenix, great. If you live in Seattle, solar isn't the best idea ever, but maybe wind offshore is.

Consumerism is a problem, I agree, and people don't want to believe that we live in a world of finite resources. What can you do? It will take a good slap in the face of everyone to wake up. $10 gallon gas? .80kWh electricity? Famine? Dunno, but as long as it doesn't affect day to day life now, no one will care. Consumer driven short-sighteness will be the undoing of the first world. :/

[JustSayNo]

Thank you Sonn and Looking for sharing your perspectives, it certainly adds to this enlightening discussion!

Sonn, I am familiar with the "general" development of the Turbine farms in your country, and elsewhere in Europe. Some seem to work well all around, and some seem to be causing a lot of trouble. I am glad that you and your family and neighbors have not been negatively impacted by the Turbines, certainly in your particular area is sounds like the the decision of placement of the farms was thought about carefully, i.e. flat, open, non-populated areas such as pasture and the water-and not literally on top of homes and neighborhoods. As usual, Europe seems to have a different, and often more positive, manner of doing things!

May I ask, in your area, have there been reports of a decrease in the use of fossil fuels? Has there been a decrease in the energy bills? Other than the farmers that have them on their land, what have the Turbine companies financially contributed to the area? I really am thrilled that a European with experience has joined this thread-a voice of experience.

And, just to confirm, in NY, the Turbine companies, for the most part, are targeting mountian tops, ridges, often with homes less than a few 1000 yards away and pastures with homes very close as well. If you look at some US websites, you can see pictures of this develpment tatic. I am glad to hear you, with experience living among them, say that mountain tops and populated areas don't seem to be the "right" place for 40 or so 410 ft (taller than the Statue of Liberty) Turbines.

And yes, I agree that consumer-driven, selfish, short-sighted, me me me, will be the undoing eventually

Finally, INE, I tried to read your links, but they were locked down in password-protected areas-I could not get to them. But thank you for sharing articles for all of us to read, eventhough we can't, it is the thought that counts!

[Its Not Easy Being Green]

I must say that Sonnen’s post made me laugh, in a good way though. It was nice to see someone with a sense of humor.

I’m starting to feel like a broken record with these posts. But alas.. here I go again. My main points is:
1. to inform those about the positives of wind power.
2. to let people see that aesthetics are immature and objective
3. and to say that we can’t just sit back and do nothing about our energy crisis.

I’ll expand on #3 because I feel as though many people don’t seem to grasp what I am saying here. (I don’t mean this in a bad way, I may just not be expressing myself the way that I want to) I am a firm believer in every little bit helps: whether it is lowering your heat in the winter, walking or riding your bike instead of driving down the block, or even using public transportation. I realize that this is much easier when you live in a more populated area such as NYC or Long Island. My parents recently moved to Orange County and it is a good 5 miles to “the corner store.”

I don’t think that wind power is the only answer, I understand that you can’t just put them wherever you want to and the energy crisis is gone forever. On that same thought though, I don’t feel as though putting up solar panels all over are going to solve it either. Right now there is NO set way to solve what we have done. I can’t sit on the computer and blame joe shmoe from 150 years ago for making a huge dirty new factory just as I can’t blame joe shmoe next door for leaving his TV on all night. BOTH are at fault, and WE ALL are at fault. I just feel like lets say if we know for sure that the world will end in 50 years because of all of the damage we and our past have done, if by putting up 1 wind turbine will give us 50 years and 1 day I feel as though we have accomplished something! If we can make it so that our children, grandchildren, future trees and wild life can live, and live in as healthy an environment as possible for longer than we expected… I would say we did something right.

I went to the hearings on long island for the offshore wind park and listened to over 50 people talk about whether or not they wanted the park, and one woman stood out in my mind. She was a young woman in her late twenties and in response to those who were complaining about “how the turbines would effect their view” she said “I want to be able to one day take my daughter or son to Jones Beach and show her the turbines and say to him/her, look what Mommy’s generation did. For once we weren’t fighting wars or making more pollution, we took responsibility for OUR actions and did something about it.” And I think she had a wonderful point. Americans have the tendency to do wrong and hide from it. It is much easier to point the blame at others. However, by putting up even one turbine, or one solar panel, we are consciously saying, “I did wrong, and here is how I am going to TRY and fix it.” I think this all counts

Again, it may be expensive, it may be corrupt, but there is no evidence that I have yet to find that says it does nothing at all. I understand the money issue, I’m not saying at all that the companies who put these up are and will be corrupt. But to use what I think is an analogy is cd players or other electronics. When DVD players came out they were insanely expensive, it was a luxury to have one. But now, 5-10 years after they came out you can get a cheap one for $30. We have come so far with technology I have even read articles about improvements on turbines, making them quieter and safer for birds, and in fact more reliable. You have to at least take a chance. Sonnen doesn’t seem to have a problem with them and neither did Scranton. Again, they are not the only answer but, EVERY little bit counts in my book. And again, it is NOT the magic wish to solve our problems, it may not even be the right way exactly to solve the problems but I am 99.9% sure that it will AT LEAST help, and to me that is all that matters.

I said this at the end of my first post, “You can’t change the world but you can make a dent.” (I wish this is my own quote, but is from Death to Smoochy which is an awesome movie, Ed Norton’s character is amazing.)

(-<) <3 : )

More sites(hopefully these work, sorry about that):
I’ll give a disclaimer, because Just did, this site is for wind power:
http://www.ifnotwind.org/wildlife/wildlife-ifnotwind.shtml (broken link)

This site has interesting tips for under $100 on how to save energy at home and in the car:
http://www.citizenscampaign.org/spec...rv/21_tips.htm

Ice Caps Melt at an Alarming Rate:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...176980,00.html

wikipedia has great info as well, check it out

[looking4home]

Why this need to leave things better for the next generation? I just want to break this argument down logically for once. Why does it matter to say to your offspring that our generation contributed postitively, and acted as stewards of the earth?

Mankind, in post-industrial Western civilization anyway, does not have any track record whatsoever of this sort of thinking. This is strictly an invention of the intelligensia from the developed nations, who have decided to endow human beings with responsibilites other cultures leave for their Creator.

It seems that as we moved away from our primordial past, and from an economy based on agiculture, we immediately created this nostalgia for a simpler life in which man felt connected to the earth, and where we instinctively knew that to survive, we had to treat nature with respect.

I have a theory that human beings were traumatized by the Industrial Revolution, much more than we even realized. It affects us still today, even though we have segued into a high tech world. At any rate, the need to be the earth's caretakers for the next generation is really just the natural process of things, and not a conscious decision. It is borne from our instinctive need to propagate the species, and make sure our children are able to survive. Animals do the same thing.
But I do think the time will eventually come when we will be forced to confront the issue of how to use and conserve our resources, because it will mean our very survival. Only then, will we consider sweeping changes, and perhaps that is how it should be.


There's a lot of money to made in alternative energy. Don't think the owners of the wind turbine companies are doing all of this because they want to save the planet! It's like the whole global warming thing, and all of the money that's being poured into research and development of alternatives. Of course companies want to jump on the bandwagon! And be skeptical of scientists most of all. Scientists are whores - they will say whatever you want them to, as long as you're waving a hefty research grant under their noses.

[Sonnenwende]

Originally Posted by JustSayNo

And, just to confirm, in NY, the Turbine companies, for the most part, are targeting mountian tops, ridges, often with homes less than a few 1000 yards away and pastures with homes very close as well. If you look at some US websites, you can see pictures of this develpment tatic. I am glad to hear you, with experience living among them, say that mountain tops and populated areas don't seem to be the "right" place for 40 or so 410 ft (taller than the Statue of Liberty) Turbines.

Yeah, most of the wind turbines in Germany are within 100 miles of the northern coasts. Besides a few quirky areas, the land is flat, swampy, and rural for the most part. Because of the closeness to the sea, the wind blows pretty reliably. Wind turbines become more of an oddity further south than that. The land becomes progressively more mountainous and it makes less sense to put them up. OK, now I found a bit to back that up from the National Wind Coordinating Commitee:

Wind power density also depends on air density. At higher altitudes, air density decreases and, as a result, so does the available power. This effect can reduce the power output of wind turbines on high mountains by as much as 40 percent compared to the power that could be produced at the same wind speeds at sea sea level. Air density depends depends inversely on temperature: colder temperatures are favorable for higher air densities and greater wind power production.

http://www.nationalwind.org/publications/wes/wes04.htm

Oddly enough though, those areas also have a high wind energy potential. And I just found why:

For example, mountain passes are frequently windy because they provide a channel for winds passing over a mountain range;

http://www.nationalwind.org/publications/wes/wes02.htm

LMAO, I just looked a wind potential map of Germany just now and I think that explains why I have never really seen them in the south. http://www.ilr.tu-berlin.de/WKA/wind...rmany.rsc.html

Like there are zoning laws that say I can't build a coal power plant in your backyard, you can't just throw a wind turbine wherever you want either here either. I think they would by fine as long as properly zoned and we aren't strip mining the area to do it.

Energy creation is a huge problem, no doubt. There is no way to do it that won't annoy anyone.