Lies about property values by wind developers (New York, Albany: fit in, sales)

[StillTheOne]

Anyone looking to buy or sell a home in rural New York State needs to be on the lookout for large wind energy developments being built in the area. I'm not against wind energy, or wind development, but you need to take a close look at what's happening in New York State to understand the problem.

One of the ways the corporate wind guys are placating my town (in Western NY) is by telling everyone that there will not be any impact on property values. 50 - 75 nearly 500 foot tall wind turbines which can be placed as close as 500 feet to a neighbor's property line...this won't impact property values.

What ???

There's no data to support the wind companies claims about real estate values when large (over 50 mega watt) wind installations are built in areas where there is a mix of residential and agricultural land -- like many of the areas they are trying to develop in NYS. The data they do have is on large tracts of land where there are few homes, and the homes that are close are participating in the project.

Towns are being pressured to adopt laws that allow wind turbines to be placed much too close to people's homes and property lines.

Go find and read the reports that the wind salesmen use to support their claims. You can't just read the executive summaries -- read the whole report. Then you'll find that none of the studies were done in areas with a lot of homes of non-participating landowners, none of the studies have data on home sales within 4,000 feet of a turbine!!!

Buyer, and seller, beware.

[JustSayNo]

Oh Still, you are an enigma! That is a compliment by the way. YOu support wind, but are very logical and savvy enough to see through the thin veil of lies!

The same thing here! Our Town Board, the puppet for the developer, is trying to make us believe that our property values will not go down, in fact they WILL GO UP, because the Turbines will be a tourist attraction! Makes me laugh so hard I almost puke. The thing is, our tax base is comprised of about 70% second-homeowner. Now, remember undeveloped land, such as farms, pay way less in taxes, so the developed second-home property has a higher weighing in the %. Most of the second-homeowners are planning on moving here full-time to either retire, or to relocate when they can afford to do so. There are a lot of people also whom have purchased from second-homeowners and live here full-time (that is what we have done). So, this "new generation" of residents composes a large percentage of the tax base. They think they can convince us that the destruction of the very reasons we all pay taxes, and live here (the natural beauty, the old growth woods, the mountains, pastures, and low density) is going to make our area MORE desireable and increase value. Yeah, us residents just fell of the turnip truck. AND the true locals, the 4th generation families, are also impacted BIG time because who is buying up their hundreds of acres, who is buying the 200 yr. old farmhouses? Does anyone think that anyone is going to buy a place in the shodows of 410 ft industrial turbines? Stay in Albany, or NYC, or Boston for industrial zoning. That is NOT the appeal in this area.

It is sickening how fast the wind-company scams the town boards, and the leaseholders, which often sit on the town boards. Conflict of Interest anyone?

But, NY is a homestate rule, not a majority rule, so the local Town Boards can make ANY decision they want, without regard to the taxpayers.

Also, remember all leaseholders, or participators, sign a "gag-order" that states they can NEVER in the life of a project say anything against any of the development, that is the turbines, the sub-stations, the transmission lines, the access roads, the maintanience, the noise, the flicker, etc. That is why every leaseholder you hear or see says the same thing--"we LOVE them, they make no noise, they are beautiful to see, they improve my view...." BUT, talk to the neighbor, the non-participant, and you get a WHOLE different story. Fenner Wind farm has a lot of documention on this. Alos, many families have had to abandon their life-long homes, they can't sell it, and they can't live in it!

[StillTheOne]

Yes, JSN, it is a thin veil of lies. But it took me quite a bit of effort & research to get to the point where I felt I could make an informed decision about this issue.

Opinion-wise, I guess I'm right in the middle, and it's not an easy place to be. I understand and respect the opinions of those who don't want to see large-scale wind installations in their town. I also understand the need to develop renewable energy resources for our state. Let's not forget the desparate state of so many of our rural towns that just drooling over the income promised by the wind salesmen.

I've come to believe that it's all about the siting with these utility-grade wind installations, and they should not be sited near people's homes. Period. The problem is defining what is an appropriate distance for these setbacks. I like what I'm seeing with towns like Cherry Creek (2,000 feet from a residence) and Stamford (2,500 feet from a residence). These distances seem to make sense -- they still allow for wind development, but will offer a higher level of protection to the nearby homeowners.

Those looking to buy a home (like we did) in an rural NYS should ask to see the local law governing wind installations, and try to determine if it makes sense to you: does it offer you adequate protection with setbacks? Does it have adequate protection from noise and "shadow flicker" (strobing effect cause by the turbine blades)?

I wish I'd known then what I know now.

[nunoco]

I actually support wind power. Beats global warming and dependence on the Saudi oil that funded 911. And all this stuff about viewshed cracks me up when nobody says anything about power lines (though I can see the ridgeline argument). And the bird argument seems silly when compared to the numbers of fowl killed by cats. It feels like there are a lot of bogeymen being put up to fight these things. We're heading for much more dramatic devaluation of property when the oil runs out in the next 10-20 years. But the following are real questions:
How bad is the noise, really? Shadow flicker? Seriously? Is that worse than traffic going by? And why can't these things be sited in the middle of small cities? Why do they have to be in the boonies? We've got plenty of unsightly TV towers and such where I live. Nobody complains. I'd take a windmill in my backyard. And finally, why can't they be shorter? Say 100 feet?
Thanks.

[JustSayNo]

STO, yup, we wish we had known too. We walked out of our closing, and were handed a notice of a town meeting to discuss the turbines! This was the first time we, or any or the non-participating landowners, heard about the threat. The entire situation was kept quiet and was hushed, though leases were secured, until that day. Aparently leases had been worked on for almost a year, and not a peep was made-the lease holders were told to keep their mouths shut about it. That is one of the reasons why I am so vocal now, to do what I can to help people not have the same thing happen to them.

Anyway NUNCO-thanks for adding to the thread. I understand your views and respect them, but I do want to be picky on one point. These machines are NOT windMILLS like the old quaint Dutch structures, these are 400-500 ft industrial TURBINES-that is taller than the Statue of Liberty-and you can overlay a 747 within the circu****ence (did not know that was a dirty word-let's use circle!)of JUST the blades. Now, knowing that, would you REALLY want one in your backyard-be honest-there is no wrong answer!

And, just curious, why do you think property will de-value if we run out of oil? BTW, don't listen to the scare tactics that oil will run dry in 20 years, I am not being rude but I don't buy that at all. Viewshed and birds I will not touch-everyone is entitled to their opinion.

To the questions:
Noise-as you know, sound travels differently in different areas. The wind farms I have been to are to me, loud. And I lived in NYC for 10 years so I know noise. The sound is a droaning constant humming, a vile screetching when the hubs are rotated to catch the wind, the sub-stations (that actually use energy to keep the turbines running to generate energy-doh says Homer)are very loud to me. Now, when placed on mountains, the sound is caught and pings back and forth, making them even louder and travel further. It is quieter when you stand right under them-which is the way the companies manipulate the message based on "sound is louder the closer you get to the source," so they are not loud at all silly people. But, anyone with HS science knows sound is not stagnent-it travels-and as you walk 50,100, 1000 feet away from the source, the sound is louder in many instances, especially when the source is 300 ft. off the ground and has nothing around it (because of the clear cutting) to buffer the sound from traveling. But, noise is relative, what is quiet to you may be loud to your neighbor!

Shadow flicker is just that, as the blades rotate they cast shadows fairly far and that causes a great discomfort to many people. Again, relative, but of concern to me has it dies seems to cause serious medical problems for some folks.

Why can't they be shorter? Well, many are shorter-the personal-use ones-but they only generate so much from the wind they capture. A shorter one may generate enough for your own home, or your barn, or a piece of your energy need. The INDUSTRIAL development wants to, and needs to, generate as much megawatt as possible and the little guys can't do it just yet. I don't have the right info to really answer this question appropriately, I am not an engineer, but my answer kinda gives you the idea.

Thanks for raising these points, and lastly why not in a city-too populated and too large and too heavy, too conjested, and too political I suppose. The boonies are easier because there either is enough open space or they clear-cut to make the space to get the equipment in to build these things. And in the boonies, we are all just dumb farmenrs who would sell our daughters for a couple of thousand bucks per turbine, don't ya know. All it takes is a few hundred thousand thrown at the town budget to ramrod us. In a city a few hundred thousand is nothing relative to overall budget!

[looking4home]

nunoco, don't believe the lies and the scare tactics. We will continue to have plenty of oil and fossil fuel for many years to come. Some of it hasn't even tapped yet. Now, whether we should or not is another issue. But you have to realize that the amount of power generated by wind farms is small, relativley speaking. And the areas they are placing these monstrosities are not particularly windy or suited for the purpose. I say out them off-shore on Long Island sound or somewhere. What kind of NIMBY reaction do you think you'd get then? But near the sea is where it makes more sense. You can see how money and politics can quickly skew reality.

As for property values, LOL, yeah, we all would love to loive next to a noisy, weird-looking energy facility! IMO, land owners who go along with this are destroying the peaceful, scenic beauty which NY is famous for. Are they going to start making calendars of Upstate NY with the red barns, the covered bridges and the wind turbines in the background?

[StillTheOne]

Wow, JSN, what a rude surprise. I can relate -- we were in our new home only a couple of months when we found out about the development in our area.

Real estate agents ought to be obliged to disclose where these projects are being developed so people can make a choice about the risk. Any agents out there? Are there any rules about disclosure? I'd love to know.

Towns with a good wind resource should take a more pro-active approach, do some planning, and realize that laws that offer decent protection to their homeowners is the best long-term approach -- instead of being lap dogs for the wind salesmen.

[nunoco]

Thanks for the replies, L4Home and JustSayNo. I've seen giant wind turbines (ok, you win) in Germany, and while I didn't like huge clusters of them together, I frankly didn't mind them dotting the farm and village landscape. And I love the one outside the Cleveland Browns stadium. I'd still take one in my town, too. Interesting on the noise. But I'm sorry, you guys are flat wrong on the oil. It's going, going, gone... http://www.theoildrum.com/
The potential profit is why companies are rushing to build these turbines. (And yes, I know turbines aren't the whole answer; getting out of the car is.)

[GoldenCrow]

Hello -- great thread! Nunoco, I think you're right about the potential for profit in wind power, that's why the big money firms have gotten involved -- JP Morgan, Goldman Sacks. Hmm, I wonder what kind of "green" motivates them?

So now the wind rush is on in rural New York, and these slick, slick, slick wind developers are telling us all these darling tales of how turning our towns into huge industrial parks is going to save rural America. I'd like to know where our new Gov is on all this -- is he going to allow the wind developers to keep stalking us?

[JustSayNo]

Oh no worries, Golden, our new Gov. is following in the old Gov's idea of letting in as many slick wind-conpanies as possible. To heck with the NYS taxpayer's that will suffer: Here is link to an article on Spiter's plan for the state, and a snipit in case you don't want to read the whole thing

http://www.windaction.org/news/7160
"Expansion of the capacity to generate electricity throughout the state, improving low-cost-power programs and making a “concerted effort’’ to increase the number of wind turbines."

Politicians started this, and now can't back down. Hillary Clinton's campaign ads prominently include turbines as well, so we are fighting EVERYONE on this. Don't ya know the War and Wind are the two agendas that every slime politician MUST use in their campaign!