Does ANYONE have any idea of what is it going to take to turn Upstate NY around? (New York: transplants, sales)

[honeychrome]

Originally Posted by OCNYISHOME

So honeycrome.........increased gov investment [ translation = higher taxes], more expensive energy, and protectionism in foreign trade is the answer????????????? I am sure that will stem the population exodus. Our governors answer to the current fiscal crisis.........increase taxes........in one of the most expensive states to reside.............with more then 50% of the workforce publically employed your solution will surely hit home w/ applause. How about gov getting out of the way and allowing private money to invest..........It is frustrating to see how many folks trust gov investment as the answer.........they have done such a great job till now...........look at the Albany/Schnectedy[spelling?] area...........nothing they have done....including expanding the gov work force can counter the shrinkage of GE

Yes, there will need to be public investment in things like infrastructure and education. Private, corporate investment won't/can't make the long-term investments needed- the quarter-to-quarter returns demanded by the market make it almost impossible for management of a publicly held corporation to act with five year, ten year or longer horizons. They need to see returns almost immediately, and the only way they'd be able to do that on something like roads for example, is to charge high tolls (higher than current tolls which do not pay for the total upkeep, etc. of our roads- the highway system is otherwise subsidized). Turn public education over to the private sector? Watch as cirricula are narrowed to meed the needs of the corporate sector and views critical of corporate desires are squelched. At least public education pays lip service to the notion that its purpose is create 'responsible citizens.' Corporate education's drive will be to create profits and worker training and compliance. And also watch as education becomes much like health-care in this country as the need for ever greater profits results in less and less genuine service being provided.

Taxes. Yes, taxes are a problem at all levels. About $.40 of each federal tax dollar goes to military and military-related expenditures (including military debt, veterans health and care, but not including so-called 'black budgets'). The US accounts for 45% of world military expenditures. Where taxes go should be as big an issue as how high they are. Sure, the military provides 'jobs,' but it doesn't really create anything in terms of economic growth. Certainly it is an important and necessary expenditure, but the vast extent of the expenditure is bankrupting the country. Further, corporate tax rates are nominally very high (relative to the rest of the world) in the US, but code loopholes, shelters, breaks, etc. render the effective corporate tax rate in the US very low, yet corporations benefit greatly from a public infrastructure they pay little to help maintain.

My point about energy was not that it should be more expensive, but that the availability of cheap energy helped create in large part the circumstances that allowed a mass exodus of manufacturing and other business from the state. NY is a large market, and as energy and transportation expenses trend upward over the long term, I think we'll start to slowly see companies return to the area to be closer to markets. But that will be slow.

No, bloated, corrupt and ineffective government is not the answer- but neither is bloated, corrupt and ineffective 'private investment' (have you seen what is being revealed lately on Wall Street?). The 'government,' at least in theory and by original design, is us- I'd rather see is clean up our "own" operation and put it to work solving problems than hand the job over to an unaccountable, purely profit-driven entity that is equally a mess, and hope maybe they'll do a better job. Currently their track record isn't any better than the public sector record is.

[happycamper5]

Steve wynn !!

[OCNYISHOME]

honeychrome........what private enterprise did you run?

[I'minformed2]

Originally Posted by OCNYISHOME

So honeycrome.........increased gov investment [ translation = higher taxes], more expensive energy, and protectionism in foreign trade is the answer????????????? I am sure that will stem the population exodus. Our governors answer to the current fiscal crisis.........increase taxes........in one of the most expensive states to reside.............with more then 50% of the workforce publically employed your solution will surely hit home w/ applause. How about gov getting out of the way and allowing private money to invest..........It is frustrating to see how many folks trust gov investment as the answer.........they have done such a great job till now...........look at the Albany/Schnectedy[spelling?] area...........nothing they have done....including expanding the gov work force can counter the shrinkage of GE

Where on EARTH did you get the figure that over 50% of the NYS workforce is employed by the government ("publicaly employed')? I'm sorry but that's a huge load of BS. Talk about over-hysteria!

[OCNYISHOME]

this includes teachers, local gov at town, county, city and borough level........and those that contract to deliver services w/ the state[ex childrens services].......that is not hysteria.....it is fact...

[honeychrome]

The figures for state and local government employment are available on the census website (Public Employment and Payroll Data). Its not really the easiest website to get around, but a few weeks back I dug around for the figures for public workers (including education, etc.) and, under the broadest terms, I remember it being somewhere around 6.5% of the workforce. I didn't go through every state, but I think Alaska and maybe California were the only states with a higher percentage. So certainly NY has a high percentage relative to other states, but nothing near 50%. Note, this didn't include Fed employees in NY State, but I find it hard to imagine that 40%+ of workers in NY are employed by the Fed.

[I'minformed2]

they aren't...plain and simple. NYS probably has a higher than averge proportion of our workforce employed by the government...but it's nowhere near the majority or anything close to it. In Monroe County it is broken down like this (per city-data stats)


Type of workers:

• Private wage or salary: 83%
• Government: 12%
• Self-employed, not incorporated: 5%
• Unpaid family work: 0%

OCNYISHOME is from Orange county; there the numbers are broken down like this

Type of workers:

• Private wage or salary: 74%
• Government: 21%
• Self-employed, not incorporated: 5%
• Unpaid family work: 0%

The county with the state seat of Government is Albany County (obviously) so I think it would be safe to assume that they would have the highest percentage of state employees...and the numbers for Albany County;[/left]

Type of workers:

• Private wage or salary: 67%
• Government: 28%
• Self-employed, not incorporated: 5%
• Unpaid family work: 0%

So it appears that there are more government employees in Orange County than here in Monroe County (Rochester), and Albany County has a higher percentage than Orange County; but it is still not anywhere NEAR 50% in either the counties, and I can't imagine thembeing significantly below the state average (which they would be if it were anywhere near 50%)....especially not Albany County!

[OCNYISHOME]

I'minformed2............not suprised at the detail you present. What are the definitions of private work force.......what group includes teachers and school staff , child support services that are contracted to private suppliers, transport co's that rely nearly totally on state and local education dollars, etc.? Expenses are the key indicator...........as expenses = the state and local taxes which are smothering our economy. Appreciate any data anyone has............including fed and postal, armed forces statoned locally..............and how that allcomes together

[moparboy]

One more idea.

jawny08 wrote:

"Put together an effective marketing campaign to bring back New Yorkers that have moved (and companies). Focus on states like North Carolina and Florida. There are many New Yorkers that moved and aren't happy(just look on these boards). Targeting these people may help to bring some of them (and their money) back. Southern states come up here to offer tax incentives for companies to move. NY needs to go down their and do the same. Wake UP NY!"

Here's what your governor thinks:

Paterson calls for dramatic budget cuts | democratandchronicle.com | Democrat and Chronicle

You raise some valid points, however, the cost of doing business in NY has gone up so much, international companies have no desire to locate new operations in NY, or, for that matter, any union-heavy blue states.

You couldn't pay myself, nor the hundreds of thousands of NYers whom have moved away within the last 30-40 years or so, enough to move back. Try opening up a small business in NY, and see how much of a struggle it is to keep the doors open over a 5-10 year period.

Now, the Rochester boosters in this forum agree with my views on these issues, yet they can't look past their rose colored glasses to see just how bad it is, there. I find it funny how they contradict themselves from thread to thread. Mind you, I get on these forums about once every 4 mos., and it's this easy to notice. So, Rochester boosters, where's all the bravado you folks were full of a year ago? You blather about how great Upstate is, yet now you drone on about the truths which folks like myself, have been harping on, for years.

A shortage of skilled trades and technical workers in a metro like Rochester, is nothing to be proud of, nor does it show anything positive, despite what these delusional types may spew. It shows that:

A) Nobody wants to move to there.
B) Not enough home grown talent, which means, too many are going into government, health care, non-profit, etc., jobs. Perhaps not working at all. Did I mention tens of thousands of experienced technical workers and skilled trades folks have moved away since 1990? Tens of thousands of new college graduates, too?
C) The cost of doing business there, combined with little to no competition within the labor pool, combine to drive wages down to below U.S. DOL averages. So, outsiders look at that decent $175K house in W. Irondequoit (which they"ll never get any equity out of), and its $8K+/yr. in taxes, and think twice about moving to Rochester. Same goes for Syracuse and Buffalo. Ya can't afford a joint like that on $80K/yr., and have a decent quality of life or standard of living, with how high everything else is these days, in NY.

The outmigration way outnumbers the inmigration, year after year. The only pop. group which keeps the numbers from falling off the cliff are immigrants from the Third World. This has been cited in several newspaper articles across NY State, and several studies done by think tanks. Otherwise, Upstate would be losing 100K population per annum. The educated/skilled and retired are moving out, well paying jobs are being lost/new growth is stagnant or non-existent, and NY keeps circling the drain.

These facts, coupled with a $60B state debt, looming $40B+ deficits over the next 4 years, and the tanking of the stock market, spell doom for NY. The 700+ authorities are in the red by $80B. The fiscal situation at the state and local levels (to include the overburdensome school tax situation), will surely put Upstate over the proverbial cliff, if it hasn't already.

NY is run by special interests, period. The unions and sundry other interests which ensure NY stays uncompetetive, keeps NY from prospering and wealth from being created. The labor laws, trial lawyers, workman's comp costs, etc., kep businesses from growing, new ones from sprouting up, and out of state firms from locating there. Sorry, GE ain't gonna move their plants from SC to NY, same goes for Timken, Cooper, Garlock, BMW, Honeywell, Lockheed, etc. Note how most international manufacturing which has located here in the U.S., has done so in Sun Belt states. So have other international companies within other industries. Google, Amazon, BMW, and some firm I can't think of the name of, are opening/expanding, here, within the next several months. The one I can't think of is opening a 9K employee warehousing operation in a poor area of the state, down near the deep water port of Charleston.

To see the delusional posts on here make me shake my head and wonder if these folks are serious...

I see several are college students or recent graduates. Yeah, the real world of Rochester is about to smack you in the head. Get out while you can. Don't drink the kool aid...

[garmin239]

Originally Posted by moparboy

One more idea.

jawny08 wrote:

"Put together an effective marketing campaign to bring back New Yorkers that have moved (and companies). Focus on states like North Carolina and Florida. There are many New Yorkers that moved and aren't happy(just look on these boards). Targeting these people may help to bring some of them (and their money) back. Southern states come up here to offer tax incentives for companies to move. NY needs to go down their and do the same. Wake UP NY!"

Here's what your governor thinks:

Paterson calls for dramatic budget cuts | democratandchronicle.com | Democrat and Chronicle

You raise some valid points, however, the cost of doing business in NY has gone up so much, international companies have no desire to locate new operations in NY, or, for that matter, any union-heavy blue states.

You couldn't pay myself, nor the hundreds of thousands of NYers whom have moved away within the last 30-40 years or so, enough to move back. Try opening up a small business in NY, and see how much of a struggle it is to keep the doors open over a 5-10 year period.

Now, the Rochester boosters in this forum agree with my views on these issues, yet they can't look past their rose colored glasses to see just how bad it is, there. I find it funny how they contradict themselves from thread to thread. Mind you, I get on these forums about once every 4 mos., and it's this easy to notice. So, Rochester boosters, where's all the bravado you folks were full of a year ago? You blather about how great Upstate is, yet now you drone on about the truths which folks like myself, have been harping on, for years.

A shortage of skilled trades and technical workers in a metro like Rochester, is nothing to be proud of, nor does it show anything positive, despite what these delusional types may spew. It shows that:

A) Nobody wants to move to there.
B) Not enough home grown talent, which means, too many are going into government, health care, non-profit, etc., jobs. Perhaps not working at all. Did I mention tens of thousands of experienced technical workers and skilled trades folks have moved away since 1990? Tens of thousands of new college graduates, too?
C) The cost of doing business there, combined with little to no competition within the labor pool, combine to drive wages down to below U.S. DOL averages. So, outsiders look at that decent $175K house in W. Irondequoit (which they"ll never get any equity out of), and its $8K+/yr. in taxes, and think twice about moving to Rochester. Same goes for Syracuse and Buffalo. Ya can't afford a joint like that on $80K/yr., and have a decent quality of life or standard of living, with how high everything else is these days, in NY.

The outmigration way outnumbers the inmigration, year after year. The only pop. group which keeps the numbers from falling off the cliff are immigrants from the Third World. This has been cited in several newspaper articles across NY State, and several studies done by think tanks. Otherwise, Upstate would be losing 100K population per annum. The educated/skilled and retired are moving out, well paying jobs are being lost/new growth is stagnant or non-existent, and NY keeps circling the drain.

These facts, coupled with a $60B state debt, looming $40B+ deficits over the next 4 years, and the tanking of the stock market, spell doom for NY. The 700+ authorities are in the red by $80B. The fiscal situation at the state and local levels (to include the overburdensome school tax situation), will surely put Upstate over the proverbial cliff, if it hasn't already.

NY is run by special interests, period. The unions and sundry other interests which ensure NY stays uncompetetive, keeps NY from prospering and wealth from being created. The labor laws, trial lawyers, workman's comp costs, etc., kep businesses from growing, new ones from sprouting up, and out of state firms from locating there. Sorry, GE ain't gonna move their plants from SC to NY, same goes for Timken, Cooper, Garlock, BMW, Honeywell, Lockheed, etc. Note how most international manufacturing which has located here in the U.S., has done so in Sun Belt states. So have other international companies within other industries. Google, Amazon, BMW, and some firm I can't think of the name of, are opening/expanding, here, within the next several months. The one I can't think of is opening a 9K employee warehousing operation in a poor area of the state, down near the deep water port of Charleston.

To see the delusional posts on here make me shake my head and wonder if these folks are serious...

I see several are college students or recent graduates. Yeah, the real world of Rochester is about to smack you in the head. Get out while you can. Don't drink the kool aid...

Yet another post by you full of BS and unfounded assumptions and claims. Your only valid point is about the cost of doing business caused by unions/special interest, which nobody on here really denies.
Your first BS claim that nobody wants to move back BS. Do you have any evidence to support this? Or are you just passing off your biased opinion as fact?
Your post about homegrown talent is also false. There is no shortage of skilled workers in this area. I deal with several different companies on a regular basis and they have to turn away many qualified applicants(many from out of state).
Your claim about equity is also BS. I bought a house in East Irondequoit in around 2005 and the value has rose each year. If you look at home values in the area, they have slowly risen. I could sell my home today for a profit, in this garbage market, and I haven't had it for that long.
Your claim about the out migration WAY outnumbering the immigration is false. Population, in this area at least, has been stagnant to having a very small decline(around 1% since 2000). I would not call that a large population loss as you are trying to say. You keep talking about population loss since 1990. If you have bothered to look at census figures, the area was gaining population until the late 90s.
You are assuming that people here can't make a decent living which is 100% false. There is no shortage of people living comfortably around here. Is the business climate good? Not by any means, but the standard of living here is nowhere near to what you are trying to claim. There are plenty of young people with decent jobs.
I would not be living better if I were to move to a more desirable city. If I were to go to a place like SF, NYC, or Boston I would be living paycheck to paycheck to keep my current standard of living. I may be able to have more money in my pocket if I were to move to SC or the sunbelt, but I despise those places. Having a little extra money in my pocket would mean nothing if I was miserable.