Where would be best? (Plattsburgh: lawyers, buy, income)

[Mark S.]

Originally Posted by CampingMom

Well if your from the city, this would be rural I guess to you.

If your town has more than five stop lights, you're in the big city.

[Pidgett]

Mark S:

Plattsburgher is right on the money when she describes the crime situation in P'burgh. In fact, the whole Adirondack region has some of the lowest crime in the nation, according to the Adirondack Atlas. I often compare notes with my Adirondack-native wife, who grew up 45 minutes away from P'burgh. We currently live in rural W Va, and I can tell you that the crime rate and the school system here are sub-par for a non-urban/big metro area. In Mingo County, where I reside, we have had six murders so far this year and the year is quite young still. Property theft is too high for the low population of my county. Some of this may be explained by the fact that this is Appalachia, where the poverty rate is more than 25% and the drop-out rate for high schoolers is close to 30%!! Thankfully, there is much less rural poverty and much less HS drop-outs in northern New York State, particualrly in the Plattsburgh area, which all makes for a wonderful quality of life. The only big negative for Plattsburgh and the surrounding ADK's is the lack of jobs--and I don't mean just high-paying ones, I mean all kinds of jobs! The ones that do exist do not pay all that well relative to other regions of the nation. But the upside is that housing costs are usually reasonable and the rest, well, Plattsburgher's posts say it all!!!

PS--As far as urban criminals and their families staying in Plattsburgh and causing problems; it simply is a non-issue. Again, P'burgher is correct in saying that the area is WAY TOO alien for them to make a serious go of living there. It is the polar opposite of NYC/Long Island after all. Unlike metro New York, Plattsburgh has none of the "hoods," none of the gangs, none of the street-life, none of the sea-of-humanity that is easy to get lost in after crimes are committed. It does not have the black and Latino neighborhoods that provide the basis of most of the prisoners' lives and lifestyles. As P'burgher points out, this is an overwhelmingly lily-white community with absolutely no urban street sense at all--despite the "wannabe" faux hip-hoppers and white teenage middle-school poseurs

Lastly, my job is sending me to either Vermont or the Adirondacks sometime this summer. This new position will be permanent. My wife will be closer to her family and friends. And I will be far, far away from Appalachia, which has been such an experience that I could write a non-fiction book about it and probably have it become a best-seller. That is for a different topic and forum, however. While I have met and know some very sweet people here, and have some good things to say about living in a remote part of West Virginia, I cannot wait for the opportunity to once again live in the northeast!

Pidge

[Mark S.]

Thanks bunches. One more question in regard to:

Originally Posted by Pidgett

As far as urban criminals and their families staying in Plattsburgh and causing problems; it simply is a non-issue. As P'burgher points out, this is an overwhelmingly lily-white community with absolutely no urban street sense at all--despite the "wannabe" faux hip-hoppers and white teenage middle-school poseurs

What about Dannemora? I look at the demographics at: http://www.city-data.com/city/Dannemora-New-York.html

Races in Dannemora:

White Non-Hispanic (51.6%)
Black (32.3%)
Hispanic (15.9%)
Other race (9.0%)
Two or more races (1.0%)
American Indian (1.0%)
(Total can be greater than 100% because Hispanics could be counted in other races)

And I see that the village has an extremely large African American population, compared to surrounding communities. I've got no problem with that, but since Dannemora is the site of the prison, I have to wonder: Are those population statistics including the inmates of the prison? Or is that the actual demographic run-down of the village? If the latter, why is there such a big demographic difference between Dannemora and surrounding communities? The prison seems the obvious answer, but maybe I'm just missing something.

[very private citizen]

Originally Posted by CampingMom

We are really thinking hard here to get out of Dutchess County. It's not the place we grew up at all anymore. The taxes are going through the roof and utilities here for my home(cape cod 2000sqft) hit a record this month of over $800! Central Hudson stinks.

We'd like to move to a less crowded area in NY and less costly. I drive a school bus-10 years experience. Have a degree in hospitality and tourism. Hubby's worked as a concrete dispatcher/sales/weighmaster for 20 years. Not a clue where to start. Need a good school system-preferably with field hockey.

We locals here are just getting priced out completely-salaries in Dutchess aren't near enough to keep us afloat anymore. Would prefer a area that's homes are not McMansion sized and still have small town feel.

Suggestions? Possible employers that are in northern NY/Western NY we could look into?

Thanks!

Sounds like your on our way to figuring out what will best make you happy.

You may consider the Syracuse area, but, you likely don't want to be in Onondaga county. perhaps Cortland, Cayuga or Madison would be beneficial. Be forewarned --- anywhere in New York will have skewed expenses (utilities, taxes, etc; ) Reasonable housing can be found in these areas.

Best of luck, God knows most in this country will need all they can get at least till 2008!

P.S. Remember the new U.S. motto - "Beatings will continue until morale improves"

[plattsburgher]

The demographics of Dannemora include the prison. The popular saying is that there are more inmates than locals. Make no mistake, the prison is big business up here, particularly for locals who don't desire to finish college, but want big NY retirement benefits, health care coverage, job security, etc. I believe that if a kid starts working at the prison at age 20, he can retire in 25 years and start on a new career.............with full benefits for the rest of his life. Dannemora of course, is serious big time criminals, but I have talked with other CO's (corrections officers) who work at minimum security prisons and they can and do watch movies on their portable DVD players (just like our border patrol people do when there are no people in line crossing the Canadian border) because basically the inmates sign themselves in and out of their duties, etc........If you work in Dannemora, it is definitely no picnic, but I get the distinct impression that if you want to transfer out of there into an easy (lower stress) government job with life long benefits for you and your family, you can. Add to that the numbers of clerical workers, counselors, teachers, meal prep people, people who manage the inmate workers who are skilled and make furniture, uniformed clothing for the state, etc........any sort of person that can and does make life 'work' inside a mini-city and you have a huge business.............Just wanted to clarify that the numbers that you quoted are inclusive of the prison. Dannemora itself (the village) is a small VILLAGE, not even a TOWN that has its village meetings in a building the size of a tiny post office...........The entire history of Dannemora (dates back to the mid 1800's) is a interesting aside to this area, but does not affect this area crime wise at all. Just to reinforce the point, the innmates call Dannemora "Siberia" and can't wait to get the hell outa here..............A six hour drive south to the "city" makes all the difference in the world..............This area couldn't be more different from NYC if it tried.

[Pidgett]

Mark S. and Plattsburgher:

Once again, and as always, Plattsburgher is right on the money. As a professional sociologist and demographer, and, I might add, one who works for the prison/corrections system, I can just S C R E A M: when New York State includes the prison population in its census abstracts!! This of course unfairly paints the wrong demographic picture for the communities which contain prisons. While I wouldn't do it, some folks in Dannemora leave their house doors unlocked; it is THAT safe, generally. My comments still apply to all of the Adirondack/Champlain Valley region vis a vis crime and the quality of life that I have posted previously here and in other City-Data.com forums.

A more accurate ethnic breakdown of the 12-county region of northern NYS, known as the Adirondacks/Champlain Valley/St Lawrence Valley, or simply, and affectionately, "The North Country," would be as follows:

Approximately 94% White, Non-Hispanic, non-mixed race. Within the White classification, the predominate ethnic group is of French-Canadian heritage. Other significant ethnic groups include Irish, English/Scottish, Italian, German and various Slavic nationalities.

Approximately 3% African-American and Hispanic.

The remaining 3% of the full-time population is divided among Native Americans, East Asians, Indians from India, Arabs/Middle Easterners and people of mixed racial heritage.

[nunoco]

Pidgett,
Don't the inmates show up on the census for federal funding purposes? If they didn't, there'd be less federal pork for the area, and we might even lose our congressional district, as I understand it. The corrections culture is interesting; NY State doesn't need as many prisons any more, but when Spitzer recently suggested closing some, the residents howled. Prisoners. Can't live with em, can't live without em.
One comment on crime. I think what sets this region apart from other rural, and fairly poor, majority white areas in the country (the Northwest, Mountain states) is that crystal meth never made it here in a big way. That was the first thing I asked about before moving. People up here are mostly unfamiliar with it, thank God. You can't leave doors unlocked when tweakers are around.

[Pidgett]

Hi Nunoco,

Yes, the feds use the census data to assess funding appropriations, keeping the pork barrel full to the brim. However, I believe that the census data could be modified to reflect a differentiation between the civilian population and the incarcerated. Among other reasons, having prisoner demos grossly skews policing matters by the lcoal civilain police department. Talk about pork! (No pun intended.) I would love to be a fly on the wall at the police budgeting meetings. With respect to Dannemora, I would wager a hefty amount of money that their PD has some of the best anti-crime tools and equipment, to say the least. As far as including the prisoner population data in order to "save" a congressional district, I think this cannot be of any significance because the incarcerated cannot vote .....

Your crystal meth observation, as it relates to the North Country's low crime rate, is certainly a keen one and quite valid, if unproven. However, from what I've read about and studied, I would never, ever want the NC to go through any "proving ground" of the meth crisis! Interestingly enough, North Country Public Radio had a segment on their "8 O'Clock Hour" last week about how "smart" PD tactics had squelched a forthcoming crystal meth lab growth industry in the Watertown area.

Other factors for the lower crime may include the fact that area schools offer a decent education, the cold climate and the lower materialistic expectations of the residents, i.e., less of the need for monetary wealth.

[nunoco]

Pidgett,
I completely agree with you that the system should be changed, for the reasons you mentioned. And actually, the prisoners are probably kept on the population rolls exactly BECAUSE they cannot vote. The largely conservative pols here get to keep their populaton count, which keeps their seats (rather than being redistricted/combined with other districts), while not having to deal with a large part of the population (prisoners) because they don't vote. It's population without representation! Such a deal!
And I'm quite happy that for whatever reasons, meth hasn't taken hold here. It's a big reason I moved up here and not to Colorado.
While we're at it, one other reason there might not be so much crime: there's about a billion law enforcement folks up here. Between city police, campus police, sheriff's departments, state troopers, homeland security/border patrol agents, DEA (because of the border), FBI (because of the border), and corrections officers (because of all the prisons), you can't turn a corner without running into somebody with a badge.

[plattsburgher]

Never thought of this area having an abundance of 'badges' before, but it's so very true. It is a very popular major here ...... before I moved here, I had never really heard of too many criminal justice majors, but here it's everywhere. And almost everywhere you turn, someone's brother, husband, wife, or they are a cop or even a retired cop since they can all retire very early and continue a second career............I believe after 20 years, right? I think in our city and for state police and I know for corrections it is a very short career......and don't forget to add the Clinton County sheriff's office and the county jail employees and deputies to that list........! So, yeah, no criminal in his right mind is going to stay here and if he (or she) does stay here, it won't be long before he is caught......Even the police here do a good job on traffic violations, so if your plate comes up or you have an outdated inspection, you are going to get pulled over. Yeah, nobody can mistake this place for NYC, no how, no way.........................Never made the connection before.......Lots of badges = not a good place to hang out if your a "bad guy"