Any NYers want to go North, Not South? (New York, Ithaca: best city, rent to own)

[looking4home]

homewardbound, such florid prose! And I mean that as a compliment. Do you write for a living? Tell me about Virginia - why don't you like it? It looks beautiful, and many places are still quite rural, are they not? I've seen some gorgeous antique homes for sale there, including substantial acreage. There are the expensive areas, I know, but there must be some well-kept secrets left in that state. Please do tell!

[homeward bound]

Wish I hadn't read your posting--I gotta get homeward bound down here and get some sleep. Classes in five hours! But I can't resist, and need to wind down from grading quizzes by actually thinking my own thoughts anyway....

I do love Virginia. The Piedmont section particularly, in the state's center, is lovely. It has a lot of the great old homes you noted, from handsome farms to stunning plantation-style true old mansions. The latter are too much for me, but they are impressive (if you can put out of your mind the slave-sweat and share-cropper misery that went into creating that wealth). Beautiful pastureland, impressive forests, pretty good parks and wilderness areas, close-enough to D.C., Baltimore, even Philly and NYC, fairly close to the coast. Charlottesville used to be a great little city, despite festering problems (rigid segregation by race and class, resentment of University of Virginia snottiness, etc.)--but it's gotten too popular, too crowded. Lexington remains a nice little city. There are a lot of fine smaller towns, too, and some of them are truly timeless (Brownburg, VA, I think it's called, lives in amber). The James River can be fine fishing, and the little rivers running into it are lovely to swim and wade-fish. Nice long falls and mild winters. Good respect for the better aspects of Virginia's heritage, too, once you're outside the insane sprawl of Northern Virginia/suburban D.C.

Much of the coastal area remains gorgeous too, with the commercialism and over-development not too bad. You can find a lot of interestingly unchanged areas, both natural and old-time coastal village style. Chincoteague and Assateague are great--I wish we could spend a whole summer there.

But we've lived in the southwest part of the state for 12 LONG years--we're solidly in Appalachia. And Appalachia is smothering to me, geographically and, less so, culturally. I feel like I'm hemmed in by these relentless mountains, and most of all, the deep, dark, endlessly repeating valleys. I don't know if I was claustrophobic before we moved here, but this place sure has made me that way. I love escaping to the Great Lakes, the coast, northern states (esp. NY!) with their more gently rolling, spread-out hills. Here, I feel like I can barely see and breathe. These mountains hem me in even in my sleep.

Culturally, while many of the "natives" here are very decent--honor still does mean something to many--there remains not just an anti-intellectualism (which is fine with me--as a college teacher I know all about the MIS-use of the mind!), but an aversion to learning, to re-thinking lousy problem-solving, a bitter close-mindedness that can be a disturbing meanness. Only a minority of people feel and are this way, but it's a threat that's always there. I've had softball opponents *trying* to take my head off 'cause we've got some professors on our team. You've got to be very careful once you get out of our town, a college town, about what you say and how you say it. (One encouraging note here, though: I've seen relatively little racism here, probably because in an area with relatively few blacks and hispanics, there wasn't a tradition of competing over jobs and neighborhoods, no tradition of hostility and grudge-holding. Even so, I understand when black or hispanic friends, colleagues, and students say they're uncomfortable out in the country. They get stared at, just for starters.) Culture is focused around an incredible obsession with football (and I'm a baseball-only romantic), the mega-mall, NASCAR heroes, and types of hunting that don't much interest me (I used to hunt and might again, but not the kind of hunting they do down here). There's also a lot of "Who are we gonna blame our problems on today?" bitter self-pity, a love of dramatizing really disturbing family dysfunction as if you can't let bitterness go for fear you won't have anything else. Ripe territory for Jerry Springer shows, sadly enough.

Not enough rivers, and no lakes at all. Only reservoirs, whose muddy artificiality is always too obvious. Difficult access to the rivers that are here, and they're in particularly deep, dark valleys. And the reservoirs are crowded with houses, speedboats, etc. So what's peaceful is smothered at the bottom of a "holler"--a steep valley--and what's more wide open is crowded with people and noise.

The summers aren't too hot, since we're in the mountains. But the winters don't have enough snow--really, we miss it!

And the farms aren't as stately or cozy as they are in many areas of upstate NY. Relatively little orchard acreage and even corn around here. It's mostly pasture for beef herds and hayfields, and the farms, fairly small to begin with because of the mountains, generally lack that old New York state/New England look and feel of being really family enterprises where they made everything from bricks to cider over the many generations.

More in a bit...

[homeward bound]

Far too few interesting towns or cities in this part of the state (and, frankly, well west of here, into West Virginia, and south, into Tennessee). Most are depressed and depressing. They've got a slowly-dying feel, with the decline of railyards, furniture manufacturing, etc. Many are quite ugly too, since this area was too poor for stately or even handsome homes and stores, etc. It prospered most in the 1960's to the 1970's--an era of truly ugly architecture to me. You've generally got shotgun shacks and Brady Bunch-style houses and cider-block stores, and little else, around here. The relatively few stately neighborhoods are over-run with college students intent on destroying everything within their bored sights.

The nicer parts of the state are quite far away--a three to eight hour drive. NY state always has far more interesting, vital places far closer than that wherever you are in the state.

This area was so long undeveloped, with scratch-by survival farms, that there isn't much history here other than survival. I certainly admire the endurance that previous generations had to have, but it's been replaced by run-of-the-mill super-size-me self-indulgence, with nothing much in-between.

Too far from the Great Lakes and Canada.

Not enough of that great Greek and Italian food that's so common in NY state. Not enough Vietnamese and Thai and Indian food.

NOT ENOUGH SKY.

And no offense to anyone, but while I saw more racism growing up in and around Buffalo than I've seen in 22 years in Virginia, I don't like living in a state with Confederate History Month and Confederate monuments around me and Confederate flags in trucks driving by me. I want to live on, and be buried in, Union soil. My relatives suffered to get to America and fought for the Union because it was a land of justice, not slavery and its rotten excuses and dead-eyed icons.

My grandmother, who raised me, is buried outside of Buffalo. I think that someone from our family ought to live at least in the same state, for memory and appreciations' sake.

I want my kids to have some of the experiences I had growing up, and near where I had them. They'll need them to get through life's hard times.

But the two biggest reasons are these: First, we can't stand living in a college town of 26,000 students (vs. 14,000 non-student citizens). You're on edge, on guard, all the time. If just a quarter of them are drinking on a given night (and that's a conservative estimate), that's 6,500 drunks battering the town. Imagine that--6,500 loud and violent drunks rampaging and drunk-driving through your town. Even when they're not drinking and destroying, the language, conduct, attitudes, and values of so many of these students are incredibly vacuous and hostile. My 2 & 1/2 year old son has learned the F-word simply because we open our windows and the neighborhood sounds rush in. I couldn't begin to list the violence of language, attitude, and actions we've had to deal with. And the town does virtually nothing to protect its citizens and neighborhoods, since letting students rampage like this, and letting slumlords infest neighborhoods with over-occupied student housing, is part of the town's tradition and "appeal." Plus, the town would have to make a drunk-tank almost the size of the football stadium to get things under control, so it would rather ignore the problem than truly begin facing and fixing it. And since the housing is overpriced, to live in anything like the kind of house we like, we have to live among way too much student housing. We're trapped among barbarians that no civilized person could live among. I deeply admire many of my students, but the rotten ones have made me even want to quit college teaching altogether. Trying to live among them anymore is out of the question. My wife and daughters should not get threatened with rape simply because they're sitting on our porch.

The second reason is that there are so many FAR better places to live in upstate NY, for all the reasons I'm admittedly very "florid" about! We can barely wait not just to get out of here, but to get back there.

Bet you're sorry you asked a sensible question NOW, aren't you??

[mhogan10010]

Homeward Bound

I can relate. I did 12 years in NC. 5 in the mountains and 7 down in the flatlands. While I am not from Upstate, I am originally from Michigan, I have always found upstaters, especially from Buffalo, very similar to the people I grew up around in the Midwest.
For some people the mountains give them a sense of security, for me it was more of the closed in, restricted kind of feeling.
I will say that I found the folks in the mountains to generally be easier to deal with than the Eastern North Carolinians. Also, the racism was much more open and severe in the East. I also lived in a college town that was usually listed as one of the top party schools in America. Hardly anyone ever went downtown anymore. It was pretty much given over to students after dark.

I now work at a university in NYC. We are in Manhattan and a commuter campus. Most of our students are part-time and hold down jobs. They seem much more serious than the spoiled brats at places like NYU and Columbia.

Good luck on your move. There is life after the South.

[looking4home]

homewardbound, you are a college professor, so you should not have trouble getting a job at one of NY's many colleges or universities. What about Ithaca College? It has a great reputation and is in a nice part of NY. Or SUNY Albany? Or Cornell? I'm sure you have already researched the possibilites. Do you have tenure at the university you are presently at? It just seems that college professors are always in demand everywhere, so your move, when you decide to make it, should not be that difficult.

[anika]

Hi Phishead, I have been on this site, great support and info. I regretfully live in S. Florida. Total chaos. People are robots, scenery is road construction. Originally from NYC and at 55 after raising my children alone I have to make a big lifestyle change. I was looking at a place which is a friendly environment, animal lovers,( have 3 dogs), employment available and affordable housing. I would like to walk to the stores and interact with liberal minded hip people. My lease is up May 2007. I think we should have a relocation support group. Keep me updated. Well Wishes.
Anika

[homeward bound]

Hi, looking4home.

I much appreciate your thoughts and goodwill. I'm very optimistic about our move, too.

To answer your questions:

No, I don't have tenure. As an Instructor, though, I kinda have de facto tenure since 1) I do twice the teaching of a professor for about half the pay, so I'm a great bargain to my university; and 2) I've been here for 12 years now. Certain job-guarantees kick in since my university subscribes to a set of professional standards. (Wish we could unionize in this state!)

But even if I had tenure, I've about had it with college teaching. The students who are eager to learn make the job wonderful--but they're a rare breed. I don't mind banging my head against the wall to try to get the many un-willing students to learn, but I've plain tired of today's college student mentality in general. Their values are truly disturbing.

Plus, I've always loved to work with little kids. I did co-op work at my two daughters' pre-school, volunteered at Head Start, taught outdoor skills at a kids' summer day camp, etc. And I was a social worker for 12 years. Ever since I quit that job, I have missed the sense of making a more direct contribution to the social good. Teaching college can seem and be very detached from truly helping humanity compared to other kinds of jobs. And having two little boys now, and watching them begin their learning, has really convinced me that I feel and do best when I'm around so much curiosity. They learn so much in one day that it's a thrill to be a part of that--makes you feel like you really cheat death a little bit, that the current of life goes on, wonder still lights up the soul, the bloody world can still be beautiful, and you can help it happen.

I also miss young kids' innocence. College students are just soaked in cynicism like you wouldn't believe, from blow-up-the-world video games to hate-worshipping rap & heavy metal "music." I used to have a blind office-mate--literally, the man had no sight; he worked by Braille and with readers. He was a great man--dignified, funny, withou a trace of self-pity. The kind of person that anyone with a half-decent heart would feel honored to know. But you'd be amazed at how many college students thought that laughing at him was cool, that his blindness was an offense to *them.* The man endured his disability's injustice with a dignity that only a sickeningly few college students could and did see, and if you tried to teach them otherwise, they thought you were a fool or an enemy. At what point do you say, "I'm wasting my effort and time trying to unspoil the spoiled--people who can truly benefit from what I'm offering are out there and better deserve my efforts"?

Put it all together and I'm going to get Alternate Certification and teach elementary school--in a non-college-town. I think first or second grade would be a blast. We're going to choose our new home very carefully, with our two little ones to think of--I just don't want them around this era's college students. There's enough cynicism, enough love of anger, around as it is. My wife's a (great) highschool English teacher (don't know how she endures *that*!), too, so we're hoping to teach in or near the same town.

We'll make our move within three years--gotta amass more equity in our house first. We'll miss our friends like crazy, but I just hope we can survive until then! Truly, I'm worried a Molotov cocktail's gonna get us first. With so many students around us, we're in a war-zone of vicious drunks Thursday through Saturday night.

Thanks for asking.

What are your plans?

[looking4home]

homeward bound, it sounds as if you know what you want, and are being careful and patient in order to successfully realize your dreams. Any school system would be lucky to have you and your wife - you are obviously very committed and passionate about your profession.

I, on the other hand, will probably never leave my current location. My husband likes it here, as does my sixth-grader. We also have an older daughter who has just returned from living and working abroad for a year, and she couldn't get back home fast enough, so I guess I'm the only malcontent in the family!

I'm from upstate NY, the Finger Lakes area, and I moved to CA when I was ten. It was horribly traumatic for my sister and I, and something I should have probably sought therapy for. I lived an idyllic life as a child - a cross between Norman Rockwell and Currier and Ives (in the winter time!) I know that's an over-the-top, over-idealized, ridiculous analogy, but it felt like that to me. To make matters worse, we left our small town in NY for Los Angeles, of all places, and ended up living in an apartment for a few years until my folks bought a home in the OC.

Anyway, I don't know what I want - I know can't go back to my hometown because it's a shadow of its former self and pretty awful, but some nearby towns are still nice, or I'm even considering someplace like New Hampshire. I just want a place where they won't build a Walmart or a Starbucks close by - is that too much to ask?!

I love small town, rural life, and would like to have a small farm. The home where I grew up, while in a residential area, had acres and acres of farmer's fields in back of the house as far as the eye could see, and apple orchards across the street. I'm super-paranoid about encroaching development, and the commercialization of rural places. I don't even really like gentrification, as that leads to development and growth.

Have you read the thread about the Lake George/Glen Falls area? It's a real eye-opener. Apparently, they have a lot of growth from those seeking to escape NYC/NJ after 9/11, perhaps in an effort to return to a simpler time and way of life. Trouble is, these people often bring their bad big city habits with them, which is not so nice for the locals. This kind of massive influx kills a town's soul - not to mention artifically driving up real estate prices! You are right to do your homework carefully and thoroughly before making your move.

Have you thought about any other states besides NY? I know you grew up for a time in the Buffalo area, but where else are you considering? I also have a fear of "life's ironies". Some call it Muphy's Law - I call it the "Straw Dogs Syndrome". I don't know if you are familiar with the movie by legendary director, Sam Peckinpah. It was made in the early '70's and starred Dustin Hoffman and English actress, Susan George. It's about a couple living in NYC, who are sick of the crime and the rat race and so they move to a quiet, rural English village. They end up being terrorized, and the wife is raped and...well, you get the idea! I'm afraid that if I go seeking for that small town lifestyle, it will blow up in my face, that the whole will backfire on me, and it will be a disaster. Do you ever think about things like this, or am I just being neurotic? (don't worry, you can be honest, I won't be insulted!)

That's all for now. hope to chat with you again!

[homeward bound]

Hi, looking4home.

Yeah, I think we will find what we seek. But it took 22 years for me to realize that I really do want to go back to NY state--'cause I left it before I had a chance to really explore it.

Thanks for your kind words about me and my wife being contributing citizens. Though we're also in search of healthy peace and quiet for ourselves and our kids!

I understand your experiences and feelings; I'm sure they resonate with a lot of other people. But there really are places upstate offering that Norman Rockwell upbringing you had.

Cooperstown has its crush of tourists, of course, and Canandaigua is ringed with a lot of shopping. But Cooperstown is GREAT in the off-season, which is most of the year. Lovely little lakefront. Stately and cozy.

Canandaigua is very handsome and unspoiled within the town itself. Its lakefront, though too polished for me, is very well done.

Clinton and Hamilton are college towns, but they're classy: The colleges there don't overwhelm the town's citizens and feel.

Homer might be just what you're looking for. Fairly close to bigger places, but small, & a handsome place unto itself. When we stopped to look at a house for sale there, the homeowner's jaw dropped when he saw us habitually lock our car doors.

Naples is almost goofily innocent with its famous Grape Pie Festival.

Trumansburg, near Ithaca, is very family-friendly, open-minded, and old-timey.

Skaneateles is obviously wealthy, but it's also a beautiful town, well protected from over-development, and no local we met there seemed snobby. It gets a lot of weekenders from Syracuse (and elsewhere), but people are there to slow down and appreciate the town. During the week, it's lovely. Great lakefront parks right next to a lot of good restaurants.

Hammondsport is great. Every morning we walked to the lakefront, it was like dawn in a New England fishing village, with the sun sparkling down the lake. Fine restaurants around the village green--and the liquor store in an old bank building! A very kid-friendly, easy-going town. It was great to see kids riding their bikes down to the lake, then over to the ball fields, then eating ice cream in the park, their shorts always wet from the quick dips into the lake they kept making. It gets some summer visitors and hosts vintage boat races, etc., but it feels friendly and not touristy.

And if you really want unspoiled places, then look into Angelica and Gilbertsville. Angelica looks like a movie set, and has a lot of state land to explore all around it. This summer, it meant a lot to me to see my older son (he's 2 & 1/2) playing on the same beautiful village green that I played on as an eight year-old, big cumulus clouds off of Lake Erie puffing by overhead as if some huge friendly choo-choo was nearby.

Gilbertsville is tucked away beneath the Cooperstown area. Talk about the Twilight Zone train stopping at Willoughby! On some late summer evening, drive into Gilbertsville from the road (sorry I can't remember the highway #) that goes by the old cemetary. Golden light shines *up* the hillside under the enormous spruces, ancient tombstones cast long shadows that almost seem bronze, and everything glows a golden-green like you wouldn't believe.

And the state is still heaven for small farms of all sorts. This past summer, I checked out a few near several Finger Lakes, and the light itself felt spacious. I swear, the rolling fields were playing music.

Yes, I've seen "Straw Dogs," and yeah, there are crazies wherever you go. But I do think the decency is real and deep in these places. Could partly be a function of the winters: you gotta help others out of the snow just as you will want to be helped, so you better not be a jerk. But a lot of it is the sense of balance that much of upstate has and holds on to, the loyalty that this balance creates. I've met a lot of people up there who say, "Yeah, I could make more money in NC or AZ or FL, etc., but here my kids can ride their bikes, swim in the lake, and we have fine schools, a great village green, and this is where my grandfather settled, and I want them to know and care about this place, here you can see the work that went into this country, that life isn't all video games and shopping," etc., etc. As someone who's originally from the state and who obviously wouldn't look down on "the locals," you'd get a warm reception. Whenever my (ordinarily shy) wife said, "I've never been here, I'm from Virginia and Colorado, but I really, really like your town," we were welcomed with many open arms, in town after town. Such places and people *are* up there (or *back* there from your angle!).

BTW, I think you've explained this before, but what was the small upstate town you grew up in, and why/how is it a "shadow of its former self and pretty awful" now?

Take care!

[homeward bound]

looking4home:

Earlville, which is about equidistant south of Syracuse and Utica and north of Binghamtom (directly north of Norwich, south of Clinton and Hamilton), is a very quaint, peaceful town. They have a beautiful old Opera House, too, that attracts a lot of good music. A lot of lovely old houses--some of them huge. Great country all around. Only about 25 miles to Cooperstown (to the east), too! A nice mixture of old-time small-town feel and open-mindedness, with a growing artistic community and a lot of pride in the old buildings and history.

Nothing like slogging through grading papers to make your mind wander to a better place!