Fastest growing towns in Upstate NY (New York, Buffalo: 2010, foreclosure, health insurance)

[tball6733]

"The latest estimates from the U.S. Census Bureau say New York’s population fell by 225,000 residents over the year ending July 2006, while the Capital Region added about 3,500 residents in the same period." Forbes magazine picked Albany as one on the best areas to do business in. Money magazine last year chose the area as one of the top retirement areas. There is no "white flight" in Albany in fact the white population grew. "Donutting"? what did you do pick up a old real estate book form the 70's? You mention "white flight" and then you point out the growth of a Bosnian population. What race do you think they are? Of course the cities are going to change and yes they probably won't be as "white bread " as some would like but we are a nation of immigrants. I was born and raised in Chicago. Has my old neighborhood changed? Yes definitely. Is it "bad" no. "White flight"? sure but home prices are strong and rents are high and stores that were vacant for years now house small family owned groceries. Recently the Albany tax assessor sent out the new tax bill. While I'm not sure if it was across the board,many were advised that their home had risen significantly in value and he said he had the numbers to prove it.

[AJNEOA]

Originally Posted by JiminCT

"If the population is stagnant and new housing is being built, what's happening to the older housing? Sorry to hijack the discussion, but I've read forum postings for the past six months, and I just had to say something about this."

Go to South Salina Street or East Genesee Street in Syracuse. Oneida Street in Utica. Its a slow rot. The upstate cities are emptying out..the suburbs have grown and spread out...but at the cost of the inner cities that are gradually being abandoned. They may be business centers still...but the downtowns will turn into ghost towns at night if the de-population trend continues.

Look at the population growth (or loss) of the metro areas of upstate NY. Either stagnant or loss. In all cases the "donuting effect" has taken place. The core urban cities are RAPIDLY depopulating...and the suburbs are expanding.

If you need a parallel example to what happened upstate look at Detroit after the race riots in the 60's. The Detroit burbs are SPRAWLING while the city (that was 2 million) is now about 900,000.

I agree in that many rust belt cities such as Rochester are having trouble getting people downtown. I don't think that anyone can argue that (for at least Rochester). However, what needs to happen in order to change this? I think that business and property taxes need to drop. I looked at a house in Rochester's Park Ave area and the taxes were $6000/yr. That's too high...almost like a second mortgage. I think some people become suburbanized and think that the city's unsafe. Is safety a concern in these cities?

Does anyone else have an opinion about what needs to happen to combat, what JiminCT calls, the donuting effect? Does anyone disagree that it's happening?

[garmin239]

To combat the donut effect you have to convince people that older housing is not bad. And that the areas are safe. People have gross misunderstandings that some urban areas are dangerous and that they will get shot at random. This of course is not true.
People also seem to think that newer housing is better. In reality newer construction is of lower quality than much older stock housing. There is a lot of shoddy work now a days. Yes, with an older home you will have to do things such as get a new roof, or buy a new furnace here and there. But that is nothing compared to the problems that some of these newer construction "mcmansions" bring.
People also want space. In these towns that are growing, there are bigger lots.

[bellafinzi]

Originally Posted by JiminCT

"If the population is stagnant and new housing is being built, what's happening to the older housing? Sorry to hijack the discussion, but I've read forum postings for the past six months, and I just had to say something about this."

Go to South Salina Street or East Genesee Street in Syracuse. Oneida Street in Utica. Its a slow rot. The upstate cities are emptying out..the suburbs have grown and spread out...but at the cost of the inner cities that are gradually being abandoned. They may be business centers still...but the downtowns will turn into ghost towns at night if the de-population trend continues.

Look at the population growth (or loss) of the metro areas of upstate NY. Either stagnant or loss. In all cases the "donuting effect" has taken place. The core urban cities are RAPIDLY depopulating...and the suburbs are expanding.

If you need a parallel example to what happened upstate look at Detroit after the race riots in the 60's. The Detroit burbs are SPRAWLING while the city (that was 2 million) is now about 900,000.

Hmmm. Wonder why that is?

It's the economy. Duh! Detroit became Detroit because of the bad blue collar based economy. Chicago became Chicago because it grew from a white collar based economy. It is all about the economy.

Very simple folks. If a region has a strong economy, the inner cities will be revitalized and grow too. As soon as the local economy busts, the poor neighborhoods start spreading the blight.

[bellafinzi]

Originally Posted by AJNEOA

Does anyone else have an opinion about what needs to happen to combat, what JiminCT calls, the donuting effect?

Yes, that's easy. Attract high paying jobs to Syracuse, Rochester and Buffalo etc. Job, Jobs Jobs. It's all about jobs folks!

The hard part is HOW to attract jobs to Upstate NY when New York State is so unfriendly to businesses with the regulations, high taxes, high energy costs etc.

This is why I always bring up Gov Spitzer. If Spitzer does not make Upstate NY more business friendly, the jobs will not be created here and the donuting effect will continue....

[AJNEOA]

Originally Posted by bellafinzi

Yes, that's easy. Attract high paying jobs to Syracuse, Rochester and Buffalo etc. Job, Jobs Jobs. It's all about jobs folks!

The hard part is HOW to attract jobs to Upstate NY when New York State is so unfriendly to businesses with the regulations, high taxes, high energy costs etc.

This is why I always bring up Gov Spitzer. If Spitzer does not make Upstate NY more business friendly, the jobs will not be created here and the donuting effect will continue....

I definitely agree with this. I think this is where cities like Rochester are stuck. The regulations and high taxes are a huge problem. It's a terrible cocktail of deterence for businesses. I don't see how it's possible to lower taxes because it's NYS. It's also a problem that property taxes are so high too. The cost of living in Western/Upstate NY is low, but the taxes are so high.

Aside from jobs, there must be other initiatives that can help the situation. Cities like Memphis and Denver turned around their population decline back in the 70s and 80s by fortifying key areas of the city. They accentuated key waterfront and cultural areas to attract young professionals. These cities need to add more city-wide amenities than just bars and nightclubs.

[I'minformed2]

That's what I've always found interesting about Rochester and why I think that, all hometown bias aside, I really do think that it has a better shot at a great comeback than most other great lakes/upstate ny cities....it actually never saw the decline of the 70's and 80's that Buffalo, Cleveland, Syracuse and Pittsburgh saw...its major job losses have come in the last 10 years, when there are already new technology based jobs to grow and replace the manufacturing jobs (Kodak Park basically) that were lost.....which is happening right now as the latest numbers from the department of labor show. I see Rochester within the next 10 years completely losing the image of an industrial city, and being seen more as a college town/high tech center....similar to Providence, RI..which I see as a great model city for "coming back"

[AJNEOA]

Rochester definitely never had the population decline that the other cities had. I mean, the city peaked at around 332,000 (city pop. 1950) and declined slower and more steadily to a population of 212,000. However, Buffalo peaked at 580,000 and is now at 279,000 (approx.). Much more dramatic than Rochester, which tends to be the case for other rust belt cities.

However, Rochester always had a higher tech image with Xerox, Bausch & Lomb and Kodak. The problem the city faces, and is still suffering from, is that a few large companies continue to ambush the city with job cuts. Most of the damage has already been done, but like bellafinzi stated, taxes and regulations are holding job growth back. I know that Rochester will survive. I think it will either keep an even playing field to where it is now, or it will make a small population increase. The U of R is critical for the city, but other industries need to migrate in to make the economy truly stable.

[JiminCT]

If upstate is to ever get its financial house in order, it must GUT the heavy over-reliance on municipal employment and government contracting. Not to mention some of the corrupt city leaders that would be better served as cement executives. Upstate NY's taxes arent high because of NYC. The local property taxes have skyrocketed because the industry is leaving, and the town employees want to keep their plum benefits. My camp in NNY is in excess of 5K in taxes a year...because the lack of industry...the schools and fire and police still need to be paid. We live in a town that is basically dying dairyland...

Blaming NYC is another easy reason not to face upstates plight...NYC has high taxes too and it seems to be thriving from a DIVERSE economy. Much of upstate clung onto the old fashioned factory mentality long after the writing was on the wall. These were good jobs...but globalization hasnt just popped on the radar in the last 15 years. It has been around for a long time...
Even Kodak continued to milk an established cash cow from film when the digital world was clearly coming into prominence. A lot of turning a parochial blind eye and a lot of denial.

Its a new world. The area need jobs. What can upstate produce...Maybe tourism? Maybe utilizing what EXISTS. Biotechnology for agriculture, healthcare, alternative fuels (wind power), wonderful food and beverage products. There are excellent universities to utilize the bright student knowledge.
If there are jobs...a lot of these kids wont bolt for NYC, Boston, DC, etc...

[bellafinzi]

Originally Posted by JiminCT

If upstate is to ever get its financial house in order, it must GUT the heavy over-reliance on municipal employment and government contracting. Not to mention some of the corrupt city leaders that would be better served as cement executives. Upstate NY's taxes arent high because of NYC. The local property taxes have skyrocketed because the industry is leaving, and the town employees want to keep their plum benefits. My camp in NNY is in excess of 5K in taxes a year...because the lack of industry...the schools and fire and police still need to be paid. We live in a town that is basically dying dairyland...

Blaming NYC is another easy reason not to face upstates plight...NYC has high taxes too and it seems to be thriving from a DIVERSE economy. Much of upstate clung onto the old fashioned factory mentality long after the writing was on the wall. These were good jobs...but globalization hasnt just popped on the radar in the last 15 years. It has been around for a long time...
Even Kodak continued to milk an established cash cow from film when the digital world was clearly coming into prominence. A lot of turning a parochial blind eye and a lot of denial.

Its a new world. The area need jobs. What can upstate produce...Maybe tourism? Maybe utilizing what EXISTS. Biotechnology for agriculture, healthcare, alternative fuels (wind power), wonderful food and beverage products. There are excellent universities to utilize the bright student knowledge.
If there are jobs...a lot of these kids wont bolt for NYC, Boston, DC, etc...

Are you saying what works for NYC can also work for Upstate NY?

Taxes are high in Upstate NY due to the unfunded mandates created by downstate politicians. So yes..... taxes are high in Upstate NY because of NYC.

Jim, you are basically saying that Buffalo, Rochester and Syracuse can compete with NYC, which happens to be the financial capital of the WORLD, the most populated city in the COUNTRY, and one of the preeminent global economic centers.

NYC is in a league of its own. High taxes do not stop NYC from growing. Regulations don't stop NYC from growing. High energy costs, high home prices, poor schools don't even stop NYC from growing. Businesses still want to be there despite all the negatives since NYC is such an important world class city that happens to be the home of Wall Street. On the other hand businesses don't need to be located in Buffalo, Rochester, and Syracuse. There is nothing special about these cities.

Jim, please stop trying to compare apples with oranges.