Fastest growing towns in Upstate NY (New York, Buffalo: homes, jobs, hospital)

[JiminCT]

I would really like to know what part of your (high) local property tax bill is coming from those "unfunded mandates" from NYC and downstate? Here are the line items of my property tax bill..not including the school tax.

2007 St. Lawrence Co
Local Medicaid Cost 968.50 (this is actual...)
Town of XXXXX
Chargeback
XXXXX Fire Prot

What exactly what are those "unfunded mandates" anyway? Blaming NYC is not the issue here...

Bellafinzi...my point we know that upstate NY's economy will NEVER compete with NYC (we all know that)..but on a larger scale we can see that a diversified economy that is relevent in the modern world will buffer the troughs of some industries. Many of these cities upstate had a heavy reliance on factories. Syracuse lost over 20% of its factory economy in the six year period where Carrier and Marcellus casket closed. While this provided good employment...these types of jobs have been leaving the northeast for 50 years. Instead of clearly trying to reinvent these cities...many of the so-called leaders chose to worry more about their municipal pension than the future of their cities.

Many SMALL cities are flourishing today because people do not wish to deal with the hassles of larger urban areas. Northampton, Portland, Portsmouth, Providence are all fine examples of cities that are doing well..and tapping into the fine collegeiate talent nearby. The last three had a heavy industrial base as well...but diversified and CHANGED and evolved their business and economy. They are lower cost alternatives to Boston...and you can be sure the cities took advantage of that.

While upstate cities arent near any US cities with the clout of Boston, NYC, DC, LA, etc...they can still flourish.
Rochester, Buffalo, and Syracuse are all small cities have access to that talent with all the good schools nearby. There are many kids who grew up those areas who would stay if the economy was better. While there is nothing special about these cities (thats MHO...), its home...that means something for people. There is also Lake Ontario, 1000 Isles, Finger Lakes, Toronto,
Oneida Lake etc...nearby. How many people from Phoenix or Atlanta would love to have a Great Lake in their backyard?

Not sure that apples to orange comment...the larger picture is parallel to both NYC and upstate....DIVERSIFICATION.

[bellafinzi]

Unfunded mandates

When the State passes a new law or program... instead of the State paying for the cost of the program... the State passes the buck down to the local level. Local governments then need to raise taxes to pay for the new State law or program.

Examples of unfunded mandates are

Medicaid: Counties pay for additional medical coverage, without participation in the decision making process. The local portion of Medicaid is crushing county budgets and increasing property taxes. In Onondaga County , 45 percent of the county’s current property tax levy is spent on Medicaid. Property taxes in Onondaga County could be cut in half without this "unfunded mandate".

Health Insurance: New York mandated benefit and provider laws place increased costs on insurers, requiring benefits to be added to basic health insurance coverage, the cost of which is passed on to the consumer.

Jail Construction: The State Commission of Corrections mandates specific requirements for county jail construction throughout the state. These mandates drive up county jail construction costs.

Best Value vs. Lowest Bid: 49 states allow localities to purchase goods and services based on "best value". Best value can be more cost effective if you are getting a more durable product. In New York, localities are required to purchase based solely on lowest bid, without considering value.

New York State Assembly - Minority Press Release - Friday, June 16, 2006

"The state has taken over many functions of local governance, imposing unfunded mandates and laws that are killing the upstate economy."

Upstate needs to secede from state to succeed -- Page 1 -- Times Union - Albany NY

"The State of New York is very adept at passing down unfunded mandates to municipalities which is one of the reasons our local taxes are unbearable to a point of nearly forcing many out of their homes and the state"

New York State Library - Please Seek STATE Funds for ProQuest/HeritageQuest REMOTE Access Databases Petition

[JiminCT]

I suspect the state aid that is heavily funded by NYC, LI, and Westchester should be snipped too?

If you think you're taxed heavily by unfunded mandates...imagine if upstate decided to secede...with a withering industrial base.

Just playing the other side...

[12buttons]

Originally Posted by bellafinzi

Don't worry, I did this research for myself. I'm just sharing it as it might be useful to some of you.

*This does NOT include the Lower Hudson Valley or any suburbs of NYC. Only includes places that had over 300 new single family homes built between 2000 and 2006.

Data based on total number of single family home building permits from 2000 to 2006 source: SOCDS Building Permits Database

Place - number of SF building permits

Fort Drum (outside Watertown) 1,470

Glens Falls Area
Unincorporated 1,529
Wilton 1,041
Queesbury 981

Capital District Area
Clifton Park 1,584
Colonie 1,217
Bethlehem 984
Halfmoon 840
Saratoga Springs 787
Guilderland 639
Malta 541
East Greenbush 487
Niskayuna 466
Glenville 414
Moreau 412
Greenfield 340
Schodack 328
Ballston 321
Stillwater 316

Syracuse Area
Cicero 1,334
Clay 875
Lysander 723
Manlius 601
Camillus 547
Onondaga 546
DeWitt 444
Pompey 321

Rochester Area
Webster 1,757
Greece 1,479
Henrietta 1,176
Penfield 918
Victor 804
Perinton 785
Chili 779
Pittsford 661
Ogden 545
Canandaigua 441
Parma 427
Ontario 407
Farmington 300

Buffalo Area
Amherst 1,542
Hamburg 1,378
Clarence 1,328
Lancaster 1,184
Wheatfield 1,179
Lockport 719
Orchard Park 705
Grand Island 597
West Seneca 479
Elma 318

No towns around Utica, Binghamton, Ithaca, or Elmira exceeded 300 SF building permits built between 2000 and 2006- that's why they aren't on the list of fastest growing towns in Upstate NY.

there's no way buffalo is a fast grower -it's dying with NEGATIVE pop growth - they're leaving ..who told you you gauge fastest growing via building permits?

[shibainu]

Originally Posted by JiminCT

"If the population is stagnant and new housing is being built, what's happening to the older housing? Sorry to hijack the discussion, but I've read forum postings for the past six months, and I just had to say something about this."

Go to South Salina Street or East Genesee Street in Syracuse. Oneida Street in Utica. Its a slow rot. The upstate cities are emptying out..the suburbs have grown and spread out...but at the cost of the inner cities that are gradually being abandoned. They may be business centers still...but the downtowns will turn into ghost towns at night if the de-population trend continues.

Look at the population growth (or loss) of the metro areas of upstate NY. Either stagnant or loss. In all cases the "donuting effect" has taken place. The core urban cities are RAPIDLY depopulating...and the suburbs are expanding.

If you need a parallel example to what happened upstate look at Detroit after the race riots in the 60's. The Detroit burbs are SPRAWLING while the city (that was 2 million) is now about 900,000.

There are homes in Rochester that have been vacant for over 30 years. Well that is what Mayor Bob Duffy said in a press conference about a couple weeks ago when they were talking about the huge foreclosure rates in Rochester.

[shibainu]

Originally Posted by garmin239

I saw that and the information provided contradicts what the census shows.

The census is estimates until 2010 when the do the actual census. That is why you need to look at margin of error when look at the data set for the census.

[bellafinzi]

Originally Posted by 12buttons

there's no way buffalo is a fast grower -it's dying with NEGATIVE pop growth - they're leaving ..who told you you gauge fastest growing via building permits?

These are towns, not cities.

Single family building permits means housing growth

In most cases where there are more single family homes, there are more people

So yes, I believe that single family building permits are a good gauge of population growth. If there is a better gauge you know about, please let me know?

[shibainu]

Originally Posted by bellafinzi

These are towns, not cities.

Single family building permits means housing growth

In most cases where there are more single family homes, there are more people

So yes, I believe that single family building permits are a good gauge of population growth. If there is a better gauge you know about, please let me know?

Buffalo was number 6 in the world for cities losing population.

International: Cities with Declining Population Ranked by Annual Loss Rate

[garmin239]

Originally Posted by shibainu

The census is estimates until 2010 when the do the actual census. That is why you need to look at margin of error when look at the data set for the census.

The census pages I looked at were numbers from 2005. Not estimates until 2010.

[shibainu]

I found an interesting article about ny state. This was part of it. The rest of the article talks about population.
New york state article

In real terms, property values have increased by 3 percent from 1970 to 2000 (excluding
New York City).14 For most regions, growth in the 1980s has offset declining property
values in the 1970s. While property values for cities have been fairly stable overall
during the 30-year period, there has (and continues to be) substantial variation between
regions. Cities in the Finger Lakes and Western New York Regions have decreased the
most in real terms, while property values in Capital Region and North Country cities have
grown from 1980 to 2000. The Western New York Region is the only region to
experience real declines in property values in each of the decades examined in this
analysis.
In constant dollars, property values have declined from 1970 to 2000 for each of the large
upstate cities, with Rochester experiencing the largest decrease (38 percent decline). As
outlined in the previous sections, this decline in property values coincides with
substantial population losses for these cities.
http://www.osc.state.ny.us/localgov/...pop_trends.pdf (broken link)


Jobs

Rochester in 1990 had 505,187
1998 was the peak of 529,190
and last months was 511,238
so in 17 years we have had 6000 job gain. That is about 352 jobs a year or 29jobs a month.

buffalo
1990-556,379
2007 peaked -561,134
4,755 jobs in 17 years
Buffalo-Niagara Falls, NYEmployment Data