New York's Young People Fleeing the State (Buffalo, Rochester: new home, bankruptcy)

[Redd Jedd]

Originally Posted by aka_mouse

I hate to be so blunt but the fact is the reason there is a massive brain drain from upstate NY to Charlotte and/or the 'research triangle' is because WNY HEAVILY invested in education - thus higher taxes. And as a result of NC having lower taxes - the south got NYs best educated, while we have a shrinking tax base and at the same time NC and the south simply does not have the infrastructure for that to conitinue on.

In fact that whole 'research triangle' is lilterally Silicon Valley forcibly transplanted into BF Nowhere, Deep South, USA... where it really doesnt belong. The companies were lured there by tax rates and nothing else.. and you can see the whole situation starkley considering that none of that workforce is FROM there. This is why southerners complain about thier cities filling with transplants. Or their failing schools and city infrastructures. We know how to build cities in the NE. We're just being victimized by whiny republicans that dont want to pay taxes or pay Americans a decent wage. Thats all there is to it.

Former WNYers who got great jobs down south will find thier kids coming out of school unprepared. And if you look at all the highest taxed areas.. these are places with the most educated populations in the U.S... SFBA CA, Seattle WA... or even Buffalo NY.. workers educated in NYS are in high demand everywhere.. the only reason it doesnt show in our stats here is cause they leave.

Funny, I don't remember everyone who was smart, successful and rich coming from NY, SF, CA or Seattle. Other places do produce highly educated people. Seems like some guy named Walton created a store that became very successful, and he was from Arkansas.

You put Seattle on that list, but 25 years ago would you have, or is it only because Microsoft grew out of that area. Does that mean 25 years form now you’ll list the research Triangle? People on LI do not have high regard for the school system outside of LI? Are they wrong too?

No one forced people and companies to come to the Triangle area. They did so because of the highly respected schools and research facilities in the area and because NC fostered that growth. It seems that would make them smarter than NYers because they created an area NY could not. If it was only because of taxes, why didn’t NY do it? It would seem that the cities in the NE are the ones falling apart, and the ones in the South and West are new and growing. BTW, not everyone who moved down south is from Western NY.

So ask yourself this, “If Western NY is so great, why are people leaving?” Not trying to pick on the area, but since you feel it is superior, why isn’t in growing?

[Redd Jedd]

Originally Posted by i'minformed

yep....in another decade or two people will be complaing that North Carolina and Georgia are too expensive, too crowded, unliveable etc....and looking for another are to become the new Utopia.

That’s the way it works, the established places that people live now are the “utopias” as you call them of yesterday. Long Island is a good example. Fifty years ago it was the place to go from Queens and Brooklyn. Now people are leaving it because it no longer offers what it once did.

[Redd Jedd]

Originally Posted by Pam& Bill

State jobs are not abundent. Nor is NY state inexpensive. The taxes alone will kill you. Although I will agree that the Adirondacks are a more reasonable area of the state, not all upstate is as reasonable.
I moved to Tn. where I can afford a lifestyle on a fixed income, in NY I had a struggle to lead an existence. So what is wrong with "dropping family and friends to move to some percieved Utopia"? You feel everyone needs to stay put so your little comfort zone isn't upset? You'd rather struggle to live there just to be around your friends that caregive their grandmothers? Not me, I'll take being able to afford to live and having a life outside of NY state.
But I will agree that upstate is beautiful and growing up in the Hudson Valley wasn't bad either, but there is a whole big world out there just waiting for me and it is better then taking care of grandma.

Before I left for NC, I looked at Clifton Park. Nice area, I know people around there, but the taxes on a house there were about $5000 a year. Not much less than the $7000 I was paying on LI at the time. Now I pay $1300 on a bigger house in either of those locations, while making as much as I did working in NYC (in computer support).

[Redd Jedd]

Originally Posted by aka_mouse

I totally agree with you on the job situation upstate, However, I just want to point the main thing Im getting at with all this -- people who get great jobs don't leave for those high paying jobs and live on the cheap till its all paid off -- They take on even more debt buying homes and new cars once they get there (even if they are reasonably priced or cheap.) Or start families or whatever other expenses. Im saying it ends up being the same thing. This entire nation is almost completely driven on debt.

I know exactly one single person who's really moved up in a measurable way since they left the area.. and thats only cause they got married, he graduated from Canisius and got a great $70k+ job in Charlotte and purchased a Buffalo priced $125k home in a close suburb in a new development. With his high paying job and his wifes income (which isnt even needed) they are living well, but they are not materialistic people anyway so in the big picture it doesnt even matter. Not that there is that many amenities to enjoy in the area in the first place (strip malls with the same stores youd find on Union Rd in West Seneca where they are from) but it doesn't even matter to them. (weather was a non factor, they just went with the flow)

Every single other person I know that left, made lateral moves at best. And this varies from a friends brother getting a great engineering job and living in the expensive NoVa suburbs of DC (now dealing with the congested commutes) up to and including guys who left gritty artsy Buffalo neighborhoods and the whole 'party scene' to live in the exact same style places on the West Coast in larger cities. Ranging from San Diego and Los Angeles all the way to Portland and Seattle.

I even know a guy and his wife who has bounced from the Charlotte area and back to Buffalo probably a dozen times now. Cause he's not a white collar professional (Charlotte's a banking town.. with a GED/HS diploma/Weak college degree, youre not going any farther than you were in Buffalo) and his wife is a teacher, and shocker! the inner-city schools in Charlotte shes works at are just as '****ty' as they are up here. It cause most people who move from WNY put their kids in private schools anyway cause now they have the $$$ to do so, while in WNY the suburban public school are great. And in the Carolina there is political opposition to publicly funded institutions, it is a 'Red State' after all. So up here you pay taxes and if youre in the burbs youre kids get an education, you go down south , you get less taxes, but youre paying to put your kids through school cause the public system blows. And even now taxes are going up in the southern cities cause they are realizing you cant run a major city without public funding (DUH) Up North we actually know how to build cities, we just lost our tax base.

You seem to dislike Charlotte an awful lot. Have you ever been there? Coming for the NYC area, I would say the same exact things you are saying about Charlotte to refer to Buffalo. Only Charlotte is growing and Buffalo is not.

All places have bad sections of town and bad schools. I don’t know why you think all of Charlotte is run down and that the state is against funding public schools. They are not. I don’t know how they fund the schools in Buffalo, same as LI I suspect, property taxes and hundreds of separate school districts. In NC, they do it by county wide districts, much better than on LI.

And if they knew how to build cities up North, they’d know how to keep the people there. Saying that you lost your tax base says volumes on what is going on up there. I’ve lived on LI for over 40 years, so I know something about how things work up there.

[Redd Jedd]

[quote=fopt65;1143959]

Originally Posted by nickster65

It is really only when one moves away that one discovers the level of opportunity that is available elsewhere.

Isn't this the reason why young people are leaving, they are going AWAY to college. It is the start of independence. Why would they want to move back? Jobs and employment contacts have already been established at their new location. I bet this fact holds true no matter what state you are talking about.
Would love to see if those staying in local collages leave their home state at the same rate as those going away to school. I would guess that they don't.

Not so in areas that have good economies. NY, Boston, LA, people go back home if they can afford to live there or to experience living in those areas. If there are no jobs, why would someone go back to their home town? People go where the jobs are.

[pepper35]

I know exactly one single person who's really moved up in a measurable way since they left the area.. and thats only cause they got married, he graduated from Canisius and got a great $70k+ job in Charlotte and purchased a Buffalo priced $125k home in a close suburb in a new development. With his high paying job and his wifes income (which isnt even needed) they are living well, but they are not materialistic people anyway so in the big picture it doesnt even matter. Not that there is that many amenities to enjoy in the area in the first place (strip malls with the same stores youd find on Union Rd in West Seneca where they are from) but it doesn't even matter to them. (weather was a non factor, they just went with the flow)


Mouse you should come down and visit and see the amenities. Wonderful shopping that you don't have in WNY. Stores that won't be there for several years because there is no need for them there. CHarlotte loves to shop. South park Mall has a niemann marcus, Tiffanys, Kate Spade, and other high end stores.
Other amenities are a safe modern downtown. Bars, restaurants that stay full every day. 2 professional sports teams just as Buffalo has. A new light rail, A busy airport.
Lakes, carowinds amusement park, Nascar hall of fame is coming, concord race way, museums.
All of these things are new and there is more planned everyday. The skyline is growing and there is a young vibrant feel here as oppsed to the feel of a city that has its best days behind it.

[garmin239]

Buffalo has all of those things.
The things that it doesnt have I would not want. A "modern" downtown? I find new architecture to be extremely boring and bland. Those high end stores I could care less about. In WNY I can get high end european clothing at stores if I wanted to. Buffalo has bars, restaurants, a light rail and airport. Buffalo has lakes, museums sports, etc. To tell you the truth I don't find a "vibrant" feel when I'm in places like Charlotte. I get a cheap bland suburban feel when I'm in a city like that.
I'll take a northeastern city with character and a unique feel over a homogeneous cheaply built area like Charlotte.
Buffalo has all of these things you mention about Charlotte but for some reason you seem to think that newer = better. Newer does not = better.
People are still attracted to Buffalo because it is a unique area with an identity. When Charlotte stops being a hot spot and the jobs and people leave it will be a ghost town since there is not much that gives it an identity. It will happen. Every area has its ups and downs.

[TuborgP]

We are seeing a number of teacher candidates wanting to relocate to Maryland. Especially the affluent and top performing districts like Howard County. People probably want change and parts of Maryland along with cities like Raleigh offer the best of affluence and affordability.

[levander12]

This board seems like people are arguing between NY & NC (the North vs. the South)...and people in the North, with a few specifically, failing to recognize the problem that is going on with the state. It isn't growing, there are very little jobs being created for the candidates. So when they do have to move elsewhere, and try to vent on this board, we have certain people say that oh, there are jobs, implying that one's an idiot because they can't land one like you did and that Buffalo is a great city? It WAS a great city. ANd then knock places like Charlotte? This is really a big picture problem, the mass brain-drain and if it hasn't come around to bite you yet, it will in the future my friend.

[smalltownusa]

[quote= So ask yourself this, “If Western NY is so great, why are people leaving?” Not trying to pick on the area, but since you feel it is superior, why isn’t in growing?[/QUOTE]

There are a multitude of reasons but the main one has to do with the fact the taxes are so high and that has outpriced people and companies that then run to the lesser developed/cheaper areas of the country. Plus, although no politician will admit it, NYC also drains a lot of the upstate monies and in turn, less is spread around the state so updating a lot of areas is slow and behind the times. Only recently have the powers that be realized ***whoops***, while we were sitting on our laurels, the floodgates opened and people began moving away in droves. Now, there is some major reconstruction/rehabing of cities across the state that have layed dormat for decades.....too much too late? Only time will tell.....

And remember, NY was one of the fastest developed/populated state within the original 13 colonies (NC has 9 million people, 165 per square mile; NY, 19 million people, 2000 per square mile with both being roughly the same size acreage-wise 2006 stats) and after a few centuries, it's caught up with us. We're a worn out state in a lot of ways that drew both the good and the bad to it's soil and bringing back to it's glory financial will probably never happen in the youngest posters' lifetime, but NYC will always be a beacon for the masses and we will always have some of the most gorgeous countryside and natural resources you will find anywhere.

A somewhat romaticized look at our predicament but stemming the flow out of the state is a monumental problem for evey community with the exception of the City and people are working on it dilgently within the state. Having become the whipping boy of dying states does nothing but get the hair on the back of our necks up as most residents know we have slipped a notch or two or three....but it's still home and we love her!