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People of the Lie is a great book. Toxic Parents is also great.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12
The word "pretense" and the concept of "pretentiousness" have come of a few times in these posts.
The late Dr M.Scott Peck has written a book worth while for any one interested in dysfunction and it's root cause - evil.
Yes evil. The word that frightens so many, but sorry to say folks, it's a part of humanity. Yes a bad part.
I would recommend his book "People of the Lie" where is discuses some case studies where he believes evil was the root cause of dysfunction. It's a powerful book.
eh? I get the wanting to leave town and not wanting to invite them over for dinner once there...
but not telling them where you moved? That's a bit much.
Some people have no regard for boundaries and sometimes it's necessary to do things like this for your own protection.
My family of origins background features addiction, regular emotional/verbal abuse and occasional physical abuse. My mother likely suffers from Narcissistic Personality Disorder and/or Borderline Personality Disorder. My brother was obviously the favorite, but I think in some ways, that was worse for him in the long run as he's had trouble with the law. I let my mother back into my life in my 20s in support of her sobriety. BIGGEST mistake I ever made. She got more subtle with the verbal/emotional abuse, but still nasty. I tried detaching for civil, but distant. But that challegned her facade of happy family. Since my brother is heavily enmeshed with her and then his fiancee (now wife) became enmeshed too, my mother cried to them about how she wanted to be closer to me. Here's a novel idea, how about you don't treat me like crap? But they fell for it and eventually all 3 of them cut me off. Shortly before cut off, I was excluded from most things siblings would be included in at a wedding. Like pre-wedding family photos, toasts or readings, the family table, etc.
I have never met my 2 year old niece because of this. There are some tensions with relatives on my mom's side of the family who I otherwise like, but try to interfere in the relationship between me and her.
As another poster said, I'm only welcome in the family if I let her be nasty to me. It's not a price I'm willing to pay.
I've gotten to know my dad's side better (parents split when I was 12 and he died when I was 24) and I'm developing relationships with them. And a close friend's family has sort of "adopted" me, including me in their holiday plans
I think it's sort of the mental health equivalent of being Marilyn in The Munsters. Only as my therapist has pointed out, no one's mean to Marilyn.
When we're healthy or at least not as dysfunctional as these groups, it highlights the dysfunction and they can't handle it.
As far as I am concerned, I tell people I am an only child.
As a former JerseyGirl and possibly same age group given your moniker... my thought was "hey! I do that exact same thing!" And that my parents are deceased (one is, one not).
My own tale is tragic, if only that I waited far too long to take action.
Maybe this will help someone in the same situation.
I wish so much I'd done this 10 years earlier, it's had a HUGE positive impact on my life, and my adult child's life. Truly walking away was what allowed me the freedom to stand back and see how damaged everyone is (in my family due to my late mother's severe alcoholism and cruelty and everyone's survival methods that developed as a result, including my father -- which basically had to be survival, every man for himself). Rampant abandonment issues as a result in the whole group.
However, when my mother died (20 years now) and the family never then formed into real family, you have to determine if you can join that, or leave it. We left it. (albeit far later than we should have)
Leaving is what gave me the freedom to see that they're not malicious or bad, but instead so damaged themselves. It will never form into something functional. So, it became easy to forgive it all, because I no longer have that relationship on which to place any expectations. Just like I could forgive my mother -- AFTER SHE DIED -- because there was no longer a threat of being hurt myself again. I could finally pull away and see what made her what she'd become.
Will they ever understand that I have no hard feelings toward them, but that we just can't be part of it? Probably not. I'd hope they'd wish us the same good will in return but I doubt they do, but instead see us as bad people for leaving. But I know that in order for us to be functional, we just don't fit with them and it's toxic for us, and that's really all it is. Since the relationships were always stiff and awkward anyway (including among them all)... of course they likely don't understand.
Sometimes there is just so much sad history over so many years that all you can do is walk away in order to recover from it and remove it from your own self-identity. It isn't even necessarily current conflict (like in my case) but just too much heartbreak and abandonment, betrayals on many fronts, and loss. Only sad memories, none happy.
It's almost spooky how my life has changed since, in terms of my own self confidence and ability to start taking some risks in my life now, as well as having real friendships now (I had become a serious loner over the years). Any connection? Hmmm.
So.... just like you.... I have no family, no siblings. Period.
And as I tell my friends who ask me "don't you miss family": I miss having a family as others do, but not THAT "family".
Sure, on holidays I wish we had a family and feel a pang of longing for one. I no longer associate holidays with unbelievably horrible family things (trust me, I have literally no happy holiday memories, all were ruined by my mother)... instead holidays mean peacefulness for us and an escape from the world for a day and just be... chilled. I'll take that anytime :-).
Just want to note, though, that that's what worked for myself and my ADULT child. I'm not advocating such a path for everyone, and note that I didn't do anything until my child was over 30 yrs old and, actually, on his very urging in seeing my pain for so long, which is what finally gave me the courage to do this.
Thank you OP for raising this thread. We are survivors, and I'm so glad I took that scary leap into the light of a real life without these shackles of sad history. Now the key is living vs just surviving and it's a pretty great thing. :-)
A while back my husband and I, both the designated "black sheep" in very different but highly dysfunctional families, decided we had "had enough" abuse, torment and drama.
We were tired of being lectured by my husband's self righteous Pentecostal know-it-all sister, his bragging bigoted brother in law, who talks about shooting gays as a pass time and manipulated by his preachy and Machiavellian mother.
We were tired of my father who never stops bragging about the meager achievements of my half brother, who at thirty still lives at home and works part time while driving a BMW paid for by my father and his wife.
We were tired of not being invited to weddings and other family events in the case of my husbands famly.
And on my side we would be invited to Christmas and Easter only if I was on speaking terms with my drama queen younger sister who is narcissistic and manipulative.
But some how my younger sister is the "gate keeper" of such events.
So we moved out of state with our kids and his parents hire a PI to track us down!
We really feel we got the short end of the stick when it comes to families of origin. Our kids don't have grandparents, aunts or uncles.
But if we stay in this dysfunctional mess, we have to submit to being treated like second class citizens.
We know we are "the Normal Ones" and they are not.
Can anyone else shed some light on this strange dynamic? Are we the only ones?
No, you're not the only ones. My husband and I left our state of origin years ago due to our take on "family." I think I always knew that many families are pretty dysfunctional, whatever term you might use, but people can't break loose due to multiple reasons--guilt, worries about being "alone," financial motivations, you name it. You're always gonna suffer when you take your own path in life, whatever way it goes down, job, where you live, family. You're individuating and it's a rough process. Family's that are enmeshed have a herd mentality. They think alike, feel alike, etc.. And, the ones that break free of it,living their own lives, are the "black" sheeps. Better than being a "sick" sheep.
Last edited by Nanny Goat; 08-03-2012 at 12:51 PM..
As a former JerseyGirl and possibly same age group given your moniker... my thought was "hey! I do that exact same thing!" And that my parents are deceased (one is, one not).
My own tale is tragic, if only that I waited far too long to take action.
Maybe this will help someone in the same situation.
I wish so much I'd done this 10 years earlier, it's had a HUGE positive impact on my life, and my adult child's life. Truly walking away was what allowed me the freedom to stand back and see how damaged everyone is (in my family due to my late mother's severe alcoholism and cruelty and everyone's survival methods that developed as a result, including my father -- which basically had to be survival, every man for himself). Rampant abandonment issues as a result in the whole group.
However, when my mother died (20 years now) and the family never then formed into real family, you have to determine if you can join that, or leave it. We left it. (albeit far later than we should have)
Leaving is what gave me the freedom to see that they're not malicious or bad, but instead so damaged themselves. It will never form into something functional. So, it became easy to forgive it all, because I no longer have that relationship on which to place any expectations. Just like I could forgive my mother -- AFTER SHE DIED -- because there was no longer a threat of being hurt myself again. I could finally pull away and see what made her what she'd become.
Will they ever understand that I have no hard feelings toward them, but that we just can't be part of it? Probably not. I'd hope they'd wish us the same good will in return but I doubt they do, but instead see us as bad people for leaving. But I know that in order for us to be functional, we just don't fit with them and it's toxic for us, and that's really all it is. Since the relationships were always stiff and awkward anyway (including among them all)... of course they likely don't understand.
Sometimes there is just so much sad history over so many years that all you can do is walk away in order to recover from it and remove it from your own self-identity. It isn't even necessarily current conflict (like in my case) but just too much heartbreak and abandonment, betrayals on many fronts, and loss. Only sad memories, none happy.
It's almost spooky how my life has changed since, in terms of my own self confidence and ability to start taking some risks in my life now, as well as having real friendships now (I had become a serious loner over the years). Any connection? Hmmm.
So.... just like you.... I have no family, no siblings. Period.
And as I tell my friends who ask me "don't you miss family": I miss having a family as others do, but not THAT "family".
Sure, on holidays I wish we had a family and feel a pang of longing for one. I no longer associate holidays with unbelievably horrible family things (trust me, I have literally no happy holiday memories, all were ruined by my mother)... instead holidays mean peacefulness for us and an escape from the world for a day and just be... chilled. I'll take that anytime :-).
Just want to note, though, that that's what worked for myself and my ADULT child. I'm not advocating such a path for everyone, and note that I didn't do anything until my child was over 30 yrs old and, actually, on his very urging in seeing my pain for so long, which is what finally gave me the courage to do this.
Thank you OP for raising this thread. We are survivors, and I'm so glad I took that scary leap into the light of a real life without these shackles of sad history. Now the key is living vs just surviving and it's a pretty great thing. :-)
Wow. I can relate to everything in your post. I took my son away when he was in high school and am glad I did.
Like you, I miss the IDEA of happy family holidays - but they were often . . not so happy.
A while back my husband and I, both the designated "black sheep" in very different but highly dysfunctional families, decided we had "had enough" abuse, torment and drama.
We were tired of being lectured by my husband's self righteous Pentecostal know-it-all sister, his bragging bigoted brother in law, who talks about shooting gays as a pass time and manipulated by his preachy and Machiavellian mother.
We were tired of my father who never stops bragging about the meager achievements of my half brother, who at thirty still lives at home and works part time while driving a BMW paid for by my father and his wife.
We were tired of not being invited to weddings and other family events in the case of my husbands famly.
And on my side we would be invited to Christmas and Easter only if I was on speaking terms with my drama queen younger sister who is narcissistic and manipulative.
But some how my younger sister is the "gate keeper" of such events.
So we moved out of state with our kids and his parents hire a PI to track us down!
We really feel we got the short end of the stick when it comes to families of origin. Our kids don't have grandparents, aunts or uncles.
But if we stay in this dysfunctional mess, we have to submit to being treated like second class citizens.
We know we are "the Normal Ones" and they are not.
Can anyone else shed some light on this strange dynamic? Are we the only ones?
Scarier than that is that I am the normal one in my family...in fact, my estranged ex-sister-in-law called after 23 years two days ago and actually said, 'you know, come to think of it, I do believe you are the only normal person in this entire family'...YIKES... it freaks me out just thinking about it.
Koale
A while back my husband and I, both the designated "black sheep" in very different but highly dysfunctional families, decided we had "had enough" abuse, torment and drama.
We were tired of being lectured by my husband's self righteous Pentecostal know-it-all sister, his bragging bigoted brother in law, who talks about shooting gays as a pass time and manipulated by his preachy and Machiavellian mother.
We were tired of my father who never stops bragging about the meager achievements of my half brother, who at thirty still lives at home and works part time while driving a BMW paid for by my father and his wife.
We were tired of not being invited to weddings and other family events in the case of my husbands famly.
And on my side we would be invited to Christmas and Easter only if I was on speaking terms with my drama queen younger sister who is narcissistic and manipulative.
But some how my younger sister is the "gate keeper" of such events.
So we moved out of state with our kids and his parents hire a PI to track us down!
We really feel we got the short end of the stick when it comes to families of origin. Our kids don't have grandparents, aunts or uncles.
But if we stay in this dysfunctional mess, we have to submit to being treated like second class citizens.
We know we are "the Normal Ones" and they are not.
Can anyone else shed some light on this strange dynamic? Are we the only ones?
To make a long story short, my extended family considers me a 'black sheep' on both sides of the family. It was all over some family politics from GOD knows how long ago.
Do not trust the notion that a person is "normal" when they can perceive the dysfunction in a family unit because such perception only serves the purpose of equipping that individual to control their thoughts, and actions, in a manner that promotes change when others are ready to follow their leadership. Although one human can point out the flaws of another, and then walk away feeling satisfied, that person also contribute to the flaws of the other by maintaining a host of their own personality flaws, which are imperceptible to them until they have exposed them through careful deliberation. Only then can the exposed behaviour be controlled by the individual, who must carefully monitor their own thoughts to eliminate destructive impulses.
It is easy to think: "The other person is not trying hard enough; meanwhile, I am putting in all of the effort", but this mantra, representing flawed logic, is the root cause of dysfunction. By repeating this mantra in their head, every member of a dysfunctional family embodies the same distrust that allows dysfunction to welcome chaos into everybody's life... "It's their fault, not mine," their ego asserts itself. "If only they acted differently, my life would run smoothly."
- - -
This example from the television sitcom 'Everybody Loves Raymond' demonstrates such distrustful vengeance-seeking. Observe Raymond and his wife bicker about the briefcase that neither will take upstairs...
Can you not see that the lesson has nothing to do with the briefcase, and is instead an analogy for the selfish, flawed logic of two or more people in a dysfunctional family dynamic? "Why didn't you handle that situation better?" one family member demands of another. "Well, why didn't you?!" says the other. It can go on forever... until one of them breaks the cycle by thinking in a controlled, and unselfish manner: "I will handle it better from now on simply because it is the right thing to do" without holding the good deed, like a ransom note, over the other person's head.
To everybody who is in a dysfunctional family: be careful about exposing the flaws of your family members... you will air out your problems and claim superiority by your own logic, but the problem will not go away. Only by making a controlled effort can you stabilize your own thinking, which in turn will make your family less dysfunctional because, being attracted to strength of character, they will follow your example... When you say, "They all have so many problems, but I'm the normal one!" then, secretly, your family members are thinking the same thing, only in their mind you are the dysfunctional one and they are the one who is normal.
Instead, say "I will make myself calmer, more rational, and more loving despite their mistakes, and despite my own mistakes". Then sustain your composure through controlled effort, even when they make you angry, or they are completely rude and selfish... then you will not just be "normal" - you will be strong in character, and you will surpass the wisdom and development of the so-called "normal" people of the world, who have scarcely had such an opportunity to mature and grow their character in this world that repeatedly says, "Run away from your problems because there is no solution and there never was". The solution begins with every single human being who uses their logic and willpower to control their thoughts in a productive and healthy means towards success.
Last edited by nodeko; 07-08-2013 at 04:02 PM..
Reason: I cleaned up the post.
eh? I get the wanting to leave town and not wanting to invite them over for dinner once there...
but not telling them where you moved? That's a bit much.
Given the nature of the dysfunctional relationship it wasn't for them to know. They should have gotten the point when they had to hire a PI that these people clearly did/do not want them in their lives.
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