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Old 03-28-2013, 09:28 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,683 posts, read 45,173,181 times
Reputation: 11862

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Quote:
Originally Posted by picklejuice View Post
Great post!

It's equal to calling people this: trash/refuse. Regardless of the 'quality' of the person using the term, it tends to make them look like an utter and complete arse hole. You get an auto mental picture of Donald Trump- or some other inflated ego maniac (with the maturity level of an infant).

I have zero problem with people describing poor or abhorrent behavior; however, I do take issue with anyone who thinks they are better than someone else. Last time I checked, no one in the world is perfect.

Also, the people I have known who have used these terms to describe others have never been nice people.

I hope for your sake this is not the case! If it were, you would be the biggest "loser" of all!
Definitely, it just seems like the taunt of a high school bully, a rather inarticulate slur to belittle somebody.

Yes I don't like it when people call others 'a piece of ****' or 'trash' (while not white I think the term 'white trash' is actually pretty racist, I'm surprised at how acceptable it is to use that term, I don't even like using it, people are human beings, not pieces of rubbish).
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Old 03-28-2013, 09:50 AM
 
9,228 posts, read 18,857,713 times
Reputation: 22141
If the OP had been calling the woman a "loser" to her face, yes, that would be bullying and belittling. But he simply referred to her anonymously, without making her identity known, on an anonymous discussion forum. Nothing immature or bullying about that.

I think people are forgetting that this is an anonymous forum. Writing scathing critism of a person and using their name and identifying information would indeed be inappropriate. Attacking another member that way would be inappropriate according to forum rules. Attacking the person the OP is talking about in real life would be mean and inappropriate.

But thank God we have these anonymous discussion forums! I have found that a well-articulated "vent" or "rant" on these boards can be very cathartic. I can vent about someone or something that annoyed me, and through discharging it in such a harmless way, feel relieved of the annoyance I felt. Plus on top of that, I often get lots of validation from anonymous strangers who say they've felt the same way. Of course I also get anonymous strangers who criticize my feelings or opinions, but that's the small price I pay for the catharsis. I think that doing a harmless little post on a discussion board is much more healthy and mature than blasting a person to their face. Yes, many problems in life need to be addressed through direct confrontation, but most don't. Most of the time, we need to just bite our tongues and move on, but we have these unpleasant feelings in our bellies that need to be discharged. Should we carry around resentment, take it out on the original person, or worse, take it out on the next innocent person who crosses us?

I dont know the OP or anything about his "loser" cousin. He could be a completely lovely person IRL or a despicable windbag. But here, he presents as a person who, with intelligence, life experience, and common sense, has formed a judgment about another person. I too would be annoyed by hearing her call herself a "writer" if she writes merely as a hobby but has not achieved any success in the pursuit. I draw and do some sculpture, but I would never tell people I'm an "artist" even though I have in the past been paid to create artwork, and I have been recognized for my work. To call myself an artist would be pretentious. And if I decided to repeatedly call myself an artist, but I've underperformed in many areas of life, including my art, I would expect that I might annoy people around me enough that they might want to talk about it on an anonymous message board.
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Old 03-28-2013, 02:34 PM
 
6,040 posts, read 4,407,283 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TracySam View Post
She would tell us a lot about her older brother and how he was a loser who would borrow money from everyone (even her, a poor college student) and then go blow it on gambling, beer, or somethng stupid and never pay anyone back. When I once refered to him as her "deadbeat brother" she got really angry at me. I was like "where do you think my opinion of him came from? It came from everything YOU'VE said about him and what he did to you." Later she weakly apologized for getting so angry, but said that she could say those things about her brother, but we, her roommates, couldn't.
I play by the rule, 'if you don't want me to have an opinion about somebody then don't tell me anything about him.'
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Old 03-29-2013, 03:05 PM
 
7,782 posts, read 5,924,893 times
Reputation: 5480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
Not too long ago I posted a thread in the Writing Forum about people who say they are writers but who are not. I used the example of my female cousin and mentioned that she is a loser. I reaped a firestorm of protest from posters who seemed to feel it improper to criticize a family member. I tried without notable success to direct the discussion back onto the thread topic and off of my cousin personally. With considerable reluctance I finally answered some of the questions about her, at one point stating that all of her sibilings and all of the other cousins agreed she is a loser. That brought the comment that the poor soul is encumbered with a horrible family.

If I had realized what a distraction calling her a loser was going to be, I would have omitted that from my OP. As it was I was surprised by the vehemence of some posters (and their personal attacks on me) whose ideology about family seems to require that we not call a spade a spade if it comes to family members. I suppose it would be O.K. with those people to talk about a neighbor or a co-worker in the same negative terms, just not a family member.

Personally I don't understand what family has to do with it. In this world there are, unfortunately, people who are undeniably all sorts of things: alcoholics, drug addicts, liars, cheats, moochers, drama queens, criminals of various sorts, and so on. Certainly no one believes that people in those categories don't have other people related to them? Even murderers have parents, siblings, aunts and uncles, cousins, and sometimes even children of their own. This is simply an objective fact.

So I guess according to the "speak-no-evil-about-family-members" point of view we just shouldn't mention such things, even on an anonymous internet forum? It doesn't make sense to me. But thinking about it brings home how deeply rooted such basic attitudes are; during childhood some people must pick up that concept and accept it as unquestioned dogma. Otherwise how am I to understand what I ran into in the other forum?

Your thoughts on the matter?

There are ways to criticize your family without calling a member a "loser." Just saying. Also, understand that there are people on this forum that come from toxic families where they themselves have been the scapegoat. What you said may have touched some nerve or triggered some kind of memories. I'd say that it was a bad move. I myself was guilty of something like that from time to time. I was just lucky.

As far as people who "say they are writers and they are not" what is the criteria?
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Old 03-29-2013, 08:06 PM
 
Location: In my skin
9,043 posts, read 14,273,249 times
Reputation: 8900
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
Not too long ago I posted a thread in the Writing Forum about people who say they are writers but who are not. I used the example of my female cousin and mentioned that she is a loser. I reaped a firestorm of protest from posters who seemed to feel it improper to criticize a family member. I tried without notable success to direct the discussion back onto the thread topic and off of my cousin personally. With considerable reluctance I finally answered some of the questions about her, at one point stating that all of her sibilings and all of the other cousins agreed she is a loser. That brought the comment that the poor soul is encumbered with a horrible family.

If I had realized what a distraction calling her a loser was going to be, I would have omitted that from my OP. As it was I was surprised by the vehemence of some posters (and their personal attacks on me) whose ideology about family seems to require that we not call a spade a spade if it comes to family members. I suppose it would be O.K. with those people to talk about a neighbor or a co-worker in the same negative terms, just not a family member.

Personally I don't understand what family has to do with it. In this world there are, unfortunately, people who are undeniably all sorts of things: alcoholics, drug addicts, liars, cheats, moochers, drama queens, criminals of various sorts, and so on. Certainly no one believes that people in those categories don't have other people related to them? Even murderers have parents, siblings, aunts and uncles, cousins, and sometimes even children of their own. This is simply an objective fact.

So I guess according to the "speak-no-evil-about-family-members" point of view we just shouldn't mention such things, even on an anonymous internet forum? It doesn't make sense to me. But thinking about it brings home how deeply rooted such basic attitudes are; during childhood some people must pick up that concept and accept it as unquestioned dogma. Otherwise how am I to understand what I ran into in the other forum?

Your thoughts on the matter?
Screw 'em. You feel what you feel, you know your family better than anyone here. These people don't really matter, do they? We live in a world that excuses and rewards bad behavior. City Data is no different.
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Old 03-29-2013, 08:13 PM
 
Location: In my skin
9,043 posts, read 14,273,249 times
Reputation: 8900
Quote:
Originally Posted by TracySam View Post
If the OP had been calling the woman a "loser" to her face, yes, that would be bullying and belittling. But he simply referred to her anonymously, without making her identity known, on an anonymous discussion forum. Nothing immature or bullying about that.
Exactly. But the unspoken rule is that you should only talk about yourself. Don't ever talk about anyone else, their bratty kids, the backstabbing friend, the cheating wife, or any of society's other parasites and burdens because they just don't deserve that. Poor babies.
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Old 03-29-2013, 11:43 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles area
14,018 posts, read 17,661,889 times
Reputation: 32292
Quote:
Originally Posted by picklejuice View Post
I have zero problem with people describing poor or abhorrent behavior; however, I do take issue with anyone who thinks they are better than someone else. Last time I checked, no one in the world is perfect.
Labeling someone as a loser is indeed describing poor or abhorrent behavior, albeit in generalized form. Unfortunately there are losers in this world - people with lifetime histories of inability to remain employed, with lifetimes histories of inability to have satisfactory personal relationships (with silbings, other relatives, or anybody else), with lifetime histories of shameless mooching off others, etc. So according to your bizarre view, we would be prohibited from calling them by name and instead we would have to write out the long catalog of their traits rather than the word which sums it all up - loser. Sure, that is a judgement. We are required to make judgements of other people all the time: Whom do we trust?, to whom do we turn in time of need?, in whom can we safely confide?, and on and on.

As far as thinking we are better than someone else, it is an absurdity not to think that. I sure hope you think you are better than Hitler, Stalin, serial killers, child molesters, con artists who prey on the weak and vulnerable, and sadists, just to name a few. If you don't think you are better than the people I listed as examples, you have a terribly low opinion of yourself. And you sure don't need to be perfect to be better than the examples.

Your stance is quite simply incoherent.
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Old 03-30-2013, 12:05 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles area
14,018 posts, read 17,661,889 times
Reputation: 32292
Default Vocabulary choices

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
Definitely, it just seems like the taunt of a high school bully, a rather inarticulate slur to belittle somebody.

Yes I don't like it when people call others 'a piece of ****' or 'trash' (while not white I think the term 'white trash' is actually pretty racist, I'm surprised at how acceptable it is to use that term, I don't even like using it, people are human beings, not pieces of rubbish).
I agree that the word "loser" could be the taunt of a high school bully, but it certainly doesn't have to be. It could also be the rational, objective summing up of a constellation of traits. There are dozens of words a high school bully might use as taunts, but however despicable that usage is, does it mean the words are automatically disqualified from any other use?

"Inarticulate"?? The use of one word qualifies the user as inarticulate? "Ne'er-do-well" means the same thing but is slightly more old-fashioned and genteel. Do you accept "ne'er-do-well"? Direct language, as opposed to euphemisms, does not equal inarticulateness. To judge whether a person is articulate or not, we would need more than a litmus test of a few words; we would need to judge the totality of the person's communication skills, which would include not just vocabulary, but also syntax, clarity, and the ability to explain complex concepts, among other things. Hemmingway used comparatively direct and simple language but cannot be characterized as inarticulate.

What terms would you use to characterize that teacher at Miramonte Elementary School in the Los Angeles School District who was apparently guilty of acts so vile and disgusting that I would not think of describing them here? He is currently in jail, unable to make his very substantial bail. I would call him a weirdo and a creep while specifying that those two words are actually too mild. I see no point in beating around the bush and emphasizing that he is a human being. Well, yes, he is a human being, but human beings are capable of thorough-going evil.
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Old 03-30-2013, 01:07 AM
 
Location: Texas
43,409 posts, read 52,403,598 times
Reputation: 70378
Quote:
Originally Posted by purehuman View Post
Maybe people feel that calling someone a "loser" is pretty mean...especially a family member...especially when it was just for something as simple as her calling herself a writer, and you not agreeing with that...Calling someone a loser kinda denotes that everything they do is wrong.
I agree.
It sounds biased right of the bat.
If you truly want to know if we think an unpublished writer is still a writer, you can ask it without all the background about some person you obviously think so little of.
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Old 03-30-2013, 09:20 AM
 
Location: In my skin
9,043 posts, read 14,273,249 times
Reputation: 8900
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
Labeling someone as a loser is indeed describing poor or abhorrent behavior, albeit in generalized form. Unfortunately there are losers in this world - people with lifetime histories of inability to remain employed, with lifetimes histories of inability to have satisfactory personal relationships (with silbings, other relatives, or anybody else), with lifetime histories of shameless mooching off others, etc. So according to your bizarre view, we would be prohibited from calling them by name and instead we would have to write out the long catalog of their traits rather than the word which sums it all up - loser. Sure, that is a judgement. We are required to make judgements of other people all the time: Whom do we trust?, to whom do we turn in time of need?, in whom can we safely confide?, and on and on.

As far as thinking we are better than someone else, it is an absurdity not to think that. I sure hope you think you are better than Hitler, Stalin, serial killers, child molesters, con artists who prey on the weak and vulnerable, and sadists, just to name a few. If you don't think you are better than the people I listed as examples, you have a terribly low opinion of yourself. And you sure don't need to be perfect to be better than the examples.
Gawd, someone who gets it. So refreshing.

In my experience, people who preach "don't judge" don't like being called out on their own unacceptable behavior, they're woefully unrealistic, or both. I have no problem admitting that there are other people out there who are better. I am a work in progress and still haven't achieved my best self. I aspire to be like those who have. And I am better than some others. I don't publicize it or brag about it. But it does show in the choices I make in my relationships now.

Like so many other valuable sayings, "don't judge" has become a worn out excuse to remain lacking and not be held accountable.

I had a discussion just yesterday with a gal that I was once close with. I have distanced myself from her because she is problematic. I know why she is this way, but it doesn't matter. I didn't break it, it's not my job to put up with it. She has a multitude of hang ups and issues that tank her relationships and it did a number on our friendship.

She ran into a guy the other day that she dated a while back. He walked and wanted nothing more to do with her. He told her nobody likes dealing with the devil. That is because when she drinks, she turns nasty (she's done it even without alcohol, but it is so much worse when she drinks). Her response, as expected, was "Unless you have never done anything wrong, don't judge." He went on to admit some of his own faults and actions during the conversation, and she totally ate it up. It made her feel better to know that she wasn't the only loser in the relationship. He was a hypocrite. I told her that being a hypocrite didn't mean he was wrong about her. What he did doesn't change the reality of who she was. That didn't sit well with her. It never does with people like her. They abuse and expect people to put up with it because "nobody's perfect".

On the flip side, she dates losers and then plays the martyr. Who is she to judge? She's not perfect. He had a bad childhood. He's just misunderstood. So when she is not driving men away, she is attracting predators who see that she doesn't "judge" and they steam roll her.

But hey, "don't judge", because it's just wrong. We are all here for the benefit of others, before our own or instead of it. That is what makes us good people.
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