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Old 09-30-2013, 11:19 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocnjgirl View Post
I kind of agree with this. It's one thing if child is not hugging anyone, but if they hug everyone else and refuse to hug grandma, that to me is rude and hurtful. I experienced this on Saturday when we took my mom to dinner (she's 81) along with rest of family. At time to say goodbye, 4 year-old great grandchild hugs most of us, but when directed to hug great-grandma, looked at her, made a face and said "No, that's disgusting". I felt so bad for my Mom. Many little kids are frightened by old people, especially those like my mom who look really old, but to me his behavior was wrong and should have been corrected.
THAT is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm sure the child didn't know better, but frankly, I don't care--that doesn't excuse the behavior (it does help to UNDERSTAND it a bit, I will admit) and it sure doesn't mean that correction isn't warranted. If it had been child, my response would've been "either hug your grandmother" (or whomever) "or my hand is going to be 'hugging' your behind in about 5 seconds." That response MIGHT have been first proceeded by "no honey it's okay, she would love it so much it would make her feel so great" but if he still acted the same--oh yes, it's the heavy-handed approach now.

To the "onions" observation--hogwash. Where I come from, you eat what's put in front of you or you starve. It's not like I was serving cow brains or pig hearts, for pete's sake. Sure we adults if we think ahead may make some special accommodations to a reasonable extent, but that's entirely optional. It's the sassing of adults who are trying to do something nice for you that's the issue, it is NOT a "control" issue it's a behavior & respect issue.

To bring both aspects together, last July we were vacationing out of town & staying with someone who was nice enough to let us stay in their nice house for free (as in they let us use their in-ground pool). They even cooked meals for us a couple of times.

Well one night we returned from our excursions & they said "we made spaghetti." Turns out our 6 year old HATES spaghetti and said "yuck, I hate that nasty mess." I proceeded to chew her out like there was no tomorrow, letting her know how nice these people were to let us stay there & enjoy their pool etc and when she continued to balk at eating it, she got to watch us enjoy the pool while she sat on the sidelines. When she heard the word "pool" she was all excited "yah, I get to jump in the pool" to which I bellowed "oh no you DON'T! You get to eat the spaghetti outside and watch us from the sidelines while WE enjoy the pool" and that she did. Even then she was slow to eat it, but eat it she eventually did, and THEN she got to enjoy the pool with us (and for barely 10 minutes as we were about done by then).

Understand--it's OKAY that she doesn't like spaghetti, or even that she expresses this opinion, but you express it NICELY, you sure don't act like a horse's rear-end about it, and you sure as heck don't perform such an outburst when you're a guest in someone else's home. You SURE as heck don't perform such an outburst when STAYING in someone else's home & when those persons have a freaking in-ground pool & they're letting you use it free of charge.

And yes, when you grow up, you get more say-so--plenty of times I went out & got my own food rather than having what they made, but even then I let them know such was because I was in a town with unique dishes I loved & hadn't experienced in a long time & I wanted to make the most of it while I was there, they were totally okay about it. Such is my prerogative because I'm an ADULT. Kids don't have that same prerogative where I come from.

"What's wrong with America?" That someone even has to EXPLAIN this is what's wrong with America, if you ask me. The whining in restaurants from kids who think their mommy/daddy don't deserve an occasional night of Chinese for the 2 of them vs always giving the kids chicken nuggets--it's the same thing if you ask me.

LRH

Last edited by shyguylh; 09-30-2013 at 11:29 AM..
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Old 09-30-2013, 11:26 AM
 
16,722 posts, read 14,608,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larrytxeast View Post
Exactly. If it had been child, my response would've been "either hug your grandmother" (or whomever) "or my hand is going to be hugging your behind in about 5 seconds." That response MIGHT have been proceeded by "no honey it's okay, she would love it so much it would make her feel so great" but if he still acted the same--oh yes, it's the heavy-handed approach now.

THAT is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm sure the child didn't know better, but frankly, I don't care--that doesn't excuse the behavior (it does help to UNDERSTAND it a bit, I will admit) and it sure doesn't mean that correction isn't warranted.

To the "onions" observation--hogwash. Where I come from, you eat what's put in front of you or you starve. It's not like I was serving hot brains or cow testicles, for pete's sake. Sure we adults if we think ahead may make some special accommodations to a reasonable extent, but that's entirely optional.

To bring both aspects together, last July we were vacationing out of town & staying with someone who was nice enough to let us stay in their nice house for free (as in they let us use their in-ground pool). They even cooked meals for us a couple of times.

Well one night we returned from our excursions & they said "we made spaghetti." Turns out our 6 year old HATES spaghetti and said "yuck, I hate that nasty mess." I proceeded to chew her out like there was no tomorrow, letting her know how nice these people were to let us stay there & enjoy their pool etc and when she continued to balk at eating it, she got to watch us enjoy the pool while she sat on the sidelines. When she heard the word "pool" she was all excited "yah, I get to jump in the pool" to which I bellowed "oh no you DON'T! You get to eat the spaghetti outside and watch US enjoy the pool" and that she did. Even then she was slow to eat it, but eat it she eventually did, and THEN she got to enjoy the pool with us (and for barely 10 minutes as we were about done by then).

Understand--it's OKAY that she doesn't like spaghetti, but that doesn't mean you act like a horse's rear-end about it, and you sure as heck don't perform such an outburst when you're a guest in someone else's home. And yes, when you grow up, you get more say-so--plenty of times I went out & got my own food rather than having what they made, but even then I let them know such was because I was in a town with unique dishes I loved & hadn't experienced in a long time & I wanted to make the most of it while I was there, they were totally okay about it. Such is my prerogative because I'm an ADULT. Kids don't have that same prerogative where I come from.

LRH
The more you post, the more I have come to feel sorry for your children. You brought them into this world, you know. It wasn't like they appeared on your doorstep looking for a handout. This is what I think about when I say having children is the single most selfish thing a person can do. In your case, it seems also the most cruel.
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Old 09-30-2013, 12:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by convextech View Post
The more you post, the more I have come to feel sorry for your children. You brought them into this world, you know. It wasn't like they appeared on your doorstep looking for a handout. This is what I think about when I say having children is the single most selfish thing a person can do. In your case, it seems also the most cruel.
As bone-headed as some decisions we parents make can be, and that can most certainly go for me as well (many a decision I've made later on I wish had been done otherwise), I think most-times anyway parents do what they do meaning well. And yes, that matters. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" notwithstanding, I think it is absolutely relevant that most times parents mean well with what they're doing.

Even the original post, I have to say that at least in someways anyway that also applies. Not a person who has posted in here, I am sure, wants their child to be a victim of a pervert having their way with your child & tainting them for life. That such comes statistically more from family members than anywhere else is only all the more frightening & makes it all too easy to take such stances as have been stated in here.

That said, it's too easy to take such things too far. That family members are the most likely to molest isn't, to me, reason enough to teach children to resist ALL forms of totally legitimate affection from the vast majority of family members who are doing nothing wrong. It dampens the joy & enthusiasm of such get-togethers when we operate under such fear.

Also, many of us, including me in fact, can remember instances of where our parents didn't seem to provide enough validity towards our feelings & thoughts and such and as a result it felt like they didn't really understand us or even care what our feelings were, even when we weren't necessarily trying to get our own way 100%. Thus, such people now want to prevent doing that to their children now that they're parents. The thing is, though, when you go so far with it to the point that you sometimes hear talked about with many parents nowadays, I think it's taken too far. Children should still know that their parents are the ones in charge, and also that they love them--that's why when the word "dictatorship" came up I stated my style was towards a benevolent dictatorship.

Even with the onions example, I can remember growing up this dish my mother made which called for cheese. I hate cheese, especially the cheap sandwich sliced cheese, which is in fact what she'd put on the dish. Well, she actually made a point to leave off the cheese from a particular corner of the dish. I have never forgotten that, and so I actually do try & make some reasonable accommodations along those lines. When I make breakfast, which typically is sausage & biscuits & scrambled eggs, our daughter likes biscuits more & our son likes eggs more, so I give them more of each one that they like. Also, sometimes we put strawberry syrup in their milk to make it like strawberry milk. It's just that they still must eat everything put before them if they want, say, pie or cinnamon rolls later, and with the milk, if the strawberry syrup is out, then it's out, you don't throw a hissy fit about it.

There most certainly is love & validation of opinions, it's just that discipline & maintenance of order & knowing who is in charge has to be present FIRST. Once done, the goodies definitely follow.

LRH
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Old 09-30-2013, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Canada
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Quote:
That said, it's too easy to take such things too far. That family members are the most likely to molest isn't, to me, reason enough to teach children to resist ALL forms of totally legitimate affection from the vast majority of family members who are doing nothing wrong. It dampens the joy & enthusiasm of such get-togethers when we operate under such fear.
children have everyright to resist forced physical contact. children have a right to set physical boundaries. you don't have a right to force yourself on other people's children even if they rare nieces, nephews and grandkids. hand shake and polite greetings is enough.
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Old 09-30-2013, 02:42 PM
 
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On one hand, I can understand not forcing your kids to do something they don't want, on the other hand, I hope my kids grow up to be affectionate, within appropriate situations of course! My husband and I are, our families are, etc. I want to teach my kids manners and to be polite, but if they were to tell me they weren't comfortable hugging someone, I definitely would want to sit down with them and ask why and to make them feel comfortable enough to tell me why. Obviously if "Uncle Jerry" tried to stick his tongue down my child's throat I'd want her to be able to tell me and then 1- keep my child away and 2- confront this with the family...

Usually when I kid is told to give me a hug or kiss, I try to come down to their level, smile, and not get all up in their face about it. If they say they don't want to, that's fine, I say "how about a high five?" and kids have always been comfortable with that. By the end of the night they are all hugs and kisses and begging me to spend the night lol!

I don't see anything wrong with LHR's method of parenting, nothing wrong with being strict, and I'm SURE if his kids came to him and said "Uncle Jerry stuck his tongue in my mouth" then LHR would deal with it appropriately and not insist his kids be around Uncle Jerry!

Still remember the first time I met my husband's friend's two daughters, by the end of the night I had bruises lol. Tough chicks!
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Old 09-30-2013, 03:08 PM
 
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Great topic. I think it's very important to teach children that they do have a choice and not condition them to believing that they have to dole out affection, especially physical affection, just to appease other people or just because someone is their relative or friend. That can manifest itself in so many negative ways the rougher you are about it.

The point about abusers being close to home and usually the very people parents push their kids into trusting implicitly is a good one. Boy, if I could take back every second I was forced to kiss or sit on the lap of a relative or close friend of the family/church member that I didn't want to - especially when it was a man who made me very uncomfortable, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

I may have been a child and thankfully nothing happened to me (I only listened to a certain extent lol) but it's such an awful feeling, like you're being violated yet are going to get in trouble if you don't welcome that violation so there's no upside. I think it's valuable to teach our children what it means to respect their instincts and to have open dialogues with them about certain subjects instead of just commanding them to do what's customary.

I don't have kids but I'm very clear with my nieces/nephews about not forcing them to do things that make them feel "icky" when they're not things that really need to happen anyhow. You don't want a kiss from whomever? Well, you don't need one. Just don't act out. Be well-mannered about it.

Besides, affection is learned more by what's shown to you than by what you're made to show others. Me forcing you to kiss, hug, and lay all over people you don't want to isn't going to make you affectionate. It's just going to train you to suppress your own comfort for someone else's benefit.

Fine if you're a kid not insulting your dear old nan. Not so fine when you're in an unhealthy adult relationship where you're miserable because you're constantly compromising yourself for your mate's approval. Not saying cause and effect is always that direct, just saying lol

If it's just the common ew, grandma's slobber all over my face reaction, I can see parents feeling like the kid should just get over it because that's normal, just like little kids thinking it's yucky when their parents kiss, but "normal" kids get over "normal" things "normally". If too much push is needed/involved, maybe someone needs to take a step back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beera View Post
Usually when I kid is told to give me a hug or kiss, I try to come down to their level, smile, and not get all up in their face about it. If they say they don't want to, that's fine, I say "how about a high five?" and kids have always been comfortable with that.
Same here!
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Old 09-30-2013, 04:06 PM
 
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Don't want to hug Grandma? Fine. Hope you like coal in your Christmas stocking.
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Old 09-30-2013, 04:35 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
16,888 posts, read 17,196,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocnjgirl View Post
I kind of agree with this. It's one thing if child is not hugging anyone, but if they hug everyone else and refuse to hug grandma, that to me is rude and hurtful. I experienced this on Saturday when we took my mom to dinner (she's 81) along with rest of family. At time to say goodbye, 4 year-old great grandchild hugs most of us, but when directed to hug great-grandma, looked at her, made a face and said "No, that's disgusting". I felt so bad for my Mom. Many little kids are frightened by old people, especially those like my mom who look really old, but to me his behavior was wrong and should have been corrected.
I remember something similar happening to my mother. My nieces, who actually were old enough to know better and should have been more polite, visited my mother and ran out of the house saying "It is too stinky inside! It smells like old people." My mother, who was disabled and nearly bedridden at the time was so hurt that she started crying. My nieces eventually came inside and had a nice conversation with their grandparents but at ages 7 and 9 should have realized how hurtful their comments would be.

Just like my parents, I personally never made my children hug or kiss anyone that they didn't want to hug/kiss but they needed to be respectful to people of all ages.
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Old 09-30-2013, 04:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by beera View Post
I don't see anything wrong with LHR's method of parenting, nothing wrong with being strict, and I'm SURE if his kids came to him and said "Uncle Jerry stuck his tongue in my mouth" then LHR would deal with it appropriately and not insist his kids be around Uncle Jerry!
That is exactly correct. In fact, one of my uncles, I am TOLD, was known to be inappropriately physical with little girls many years ago, even my own older sister. Why he isn't in jail is beyond me (I'm told that it was handled in a disciplinary manner within his employer, the military) but regardless he is a free man.

Well he doesn't live anywhere near here, he lives where I grew up. I was visiting OTHER FAMILY in that area some months ago, & his wife, my aunt, wanted us to visit while there. Did we? Oh heck no. Not a chance. I left a message saying SHE could come & we could eat out in a public place, but I would not be going to their house. They aren't apt to travel to the area where I live, but if they do, they are NOT setting foot on my property.

I have never told them why, surprisingly, but if they were to ask, yes, I would say "it's because your husband has known issues with not knowing how to handle himself around little girls, and if I get even the slightest notion from my daughter that he's doing anything of the sort with her, I may well go to jail because of what I think I'd do to that scumbag upon getting word of it."

So yes, believe me, when it comes to teaching my kids to know how to speak up if they feel violated, I most certainly believe it. It's just that adorable grandmas shouldn't have to pay for the sins of the dirty uncles.

LRH
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Old 09-30-2013, 04:40 PM
 
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Have to agree with most everyone... hated when I was forced to hug or kiss anyone as a kid, still hate those fake hugs today as an adult!

Also agree that when food is put before a child at home, or as a guest, they don't get to make a huge fuss and be rude. They try it, or they pick at whatever they will eat. Used to make me crazy when my daughter in law would bring the grandkids "their food" when invited for dinner. Now, Im no gourmet cook so dinner was normal every day food.... but if it wasn't chicken nuggets they weren't eating. I found it rude of the adults to allow the kids to act that way.

So, no you should not force affection... but yes, teach manners and respect.
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