Navigating a complex, public discourse where few agree (person, present, statistics)

[SQL]

I've been thinking a lot about this issue. I just don't know how to navigate this arena anymore. I consider myself educated. I went to a good college, earned a degree. I read the news frequently. I listen to various podcasts (mostly economics and politics related). I feel like I have a good understanding of the world.

But then I enter the general public discourse arena. And here, I feel like I'm lost. I can present facts and statistics that I am aware of to support a statement that I provided, and people will either blatantly refuse to acknowledge it, or pull stats/data from another source that supports a different conclusion. I'm certainly open to a discussion if it can be done with both parties having an open mind and can listen to one another's viewpoint and take it into consideration. But I don't see this being that prevalent any more. You either agree with someone and support them, or you disagree with them and shut them out. There is no in between, there is no crossing over, there is no convincing anyone of anything with a strong argument.

I don't even know how to communicate or respond in this environment anymore. Quite frankly, the more I deal with this, the more I want to completely shut down. It's exhausting, stressful, and essentially a waste of time and energy that can be directed towards something productive, that will have tangible results.

Anyone else feeling this way lately? Like you just can't have a discussion with someone and either disagree or come to some sort of mutual understanding? Do you think we're at serious risk as a society as we seemingly become more divisive and fractured?

I don't know about all you, but I really need a break for all of this. Thanks for reading and sharing your thoughts.

[High_Plains_Retired]

We now live in an age of information where a point of truth becomes extremely difficult to prove. I formerly worked in an environmental career for several years trying to find solutions that worked for two sides of issues of division so I've seen a lot of very angry folks with folded arms, red faces and bitter scowls. Since retirement I have had a lot of time to contemplate the obstinate nature of humans and have decided this is just how people are built.

I've decided there will be no more U.S.S. Missouri moments where the loser signs a paper that says "I quit. You win." I've also thought that, even for that event of finality to happen, look what horrible events it took to bring Japan to a surrender.

I've come to the point that, supposing that the Christian God and the story of Christ is real, even God seemed to realize that nothing would be learned for long unless a lot of blood and a lot of pain was involved. Sorry for the insertion of religion here but it has been extremely important in my maintaining my sanity after two decades of dealing with irrational people.

I wouldn't let it worry you but don't shut down. The sun will continue to come up tomorrow and it will always shine its light on humans viciously fighting somewhere. However, there's always enough light that it can also shine on your own happiness. Pay attention to that.

[picklejuice]

The older I get, the more I realize that politics and strong opinions should never be discussed.

I try to surround myself with people who have interests that distract from such subjects.

[Blondebaerde]

LOL: username "SQL" I can see where this is coming from.

Well, sure: speaking of, welcome to my world, as a former-and-sometimes manager of business intelligence data to guide business strategy. The person who organizes the data into actual conclusions, and conveys the message.

If the data doesn't support an agenda, sometimes it is rejected. Mostly it is ignored unless someone is inconvenienced, at which time that individual or group may react but usually at proverbial bayonet-point. A few times, data and facts are embraced. Once in awhile, strongly opposed. Two plus two does not equal four if the Party says it doesn't. Obey, or face the music.

Data, if the collection mechanism is sound, does not lie. Data is (or "data are.") That does not matter, we're talking people here and what I've learned by my late 40s is people operate more on instinct and emotion than they let on. This is not groundbreaking news to older or more-perceptive people, but was to me in my 30s.

My teams and I had substantial data around measuring employee behavior at a three billion dollar corporation, late 2000s. We organized it into charts with trends and observations, along with conclusions to guide discussions. That was presented to executive leadership on various occasions. You've never backlash like what that caused, it was a change management nightmare, involving HR in a few memorable cases.

Data and facts are only once part of communication. I simply don't really care about the facts pointing to outcomes anymore, the joy is presenting the information and making interpretations. Let the chips fall where they may.

Polaroid wouldn't have gone-bust, nor would GM have sank as they did if data, facts, and trend lines were ever seriously studied. You can't "ignore" inexorable technology trends, or quality and labor problems, respectively, without a train wreck i n the long term. Oh wait: yes you can. Those are quick-study projects from Wiki or elsewhere if you're interested in the business cases.

The only "break" I take is understanding people and agendas are about all that exists, with relatively rare exceptions, in both business and the personal life. I navigate it, then walk either through, around, over, or am stopped butt-cold. Whatever, I quit caring about any of that and focus on that which is more-interesting to me.

[I love boots.]

Geez. The politics forum has exploded into this one. I think one way to lose friends is to start discussing politics at length with them especially people that are on the other side from your own. For one it isn't fun and you aren't going to change anyone's mind so much that they start voting the way you want to. I'm mostly more conservative and have told liberal friends when they start in with it that we just shouldn't go there because I can't agree with their politics so we should leave it alone. They always do and we remain friends.

[SQL]

Here are some of my specific concerns about the discourse in this country:

A) Facts no longer matter. If whatever you say doesn't fit my beliefs or feelings, then I will do whatever I can to detract from the topic and discredit you (ad hominem fallacy; this one is HUGE)

B) What are the facts? Does anyone know anymore? The information/data that is available is so twisted up and portrayed to fit a certain agenda by the time it reaches us. Who can you trust?
- Statement: "At 4.9%, the unemployment is the lowest it's been in almost a decade. I think the economy is doing well."
- Rebuttal: "Hogwash. Those numbers are manipulated and put out by the government to make it seem like we're better than we are. You can't trust those numbers!"
Um, okay...then what?

C) People are too deeply invested in one side or the other, and have no desire whatsoever to hear what the other side has to say. As soon as they hear that you're "playing" for the other team, they completely shut you out. How can we progress as a society and embrace one another when we can't even manage to hear the other side's ideas and give them proper consideration?

D) If you don't agree with me, you're all stupid.

I mean, what is the point anymore? We are just too polarized as a society, and I don't know if there's any way to come back from this. All that's happening is that we're growing further and further apart. People live in isolated echo chambers, surrounded by like-minded people. Ironically, as much as we seem to be more accepting of other cultures/religions/nationalities, we seem light years apart on discussing ideas that impact our daily lives.

All in all, nobody seems to want to listen anymore. People seem to think they know better than anyone who doesn't agree with them. I'm left thinking, what is the point anymore? Why do I even try to voice my opinion if I'm only going to be berated and told that I'm dumb? Why vote for a preference that I may not even be absolutely sure about when I can't even discuss with others to get a better understanding of the other side? I just want to shut down, and excuse myself from society.

[sutton08865]

When I was growing up in the 60s and early 70s my mom would say to my dad , " now bill don't talk about religion, war, taxes lol I said the same to my daughter lol.

[jamary1]

Open forums are not for everyone.....if it exhausts you and stresses you and makes you want to shut down, then it would probably be best if you don't participate.


I can't stand watching boxing or professional wrestling or mixed martial arts...they make me sick at my stomach.....so I don't watch them. Problem solved.