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The cultural aspect is interesting to contemplate. In American culture now, the child is the center of the universe and the entire family revolves around his life, needs and wants. Not to sound like an old curmudgeon, but it wasn't like this when I was a child (I am in my early 50s). The parents were the center of the family and the kids revolved around the parents' lives, needs and wants. Our parents' role was to care for us, protect us, teach, us, etc. but it was very clear who the center of the universe was, and it was not us. My parents weren't running themselves ragged making sure every second of every day was filled with enriching and entertaining activities for us. We entertained ourselves for the most part and because of that, developed into pretty creative people.
I could go on and on about this, but the point is...part of the problem that we are talking about here is that childrearing is way more all-consuming than it even needs to be, because of the way our culture has devolved into one that is so kid-centered.
The cultural aspect is interesting to contemplate. In American culture now, the child is the center of the universe and the entire family revolves around his life, needs and wants. Not to sound like an old curmudgeon, but it wasn't like this when I was a child (I am in my early 50s). The parents were the center of the family and the kids revolved around the parents' lives, needs and wants. Our parents' role was to care for us, protect us, teach, us, etc. but it was very clear who the center of the universe was, and it was not us. My parents weren't running themselves ragged making sure every second of every day was filled with enriching and entertaining activities for us. We entertained ourselves for the most part and because of that, developed into pretty creative people.
I could go on and on about this, but the point is...part of the problem that we are talking about here is that childrearing is way more all-consuming than it even needs to be, because of the way our culture has devolved into one that is so kid-centered.
I think about this a lot considering we are starting a family this year. I don't think its good for me or for my children if I lose all sense of self-worth and identity in their presence. I have seen this happen with a couple peers and it is disheartening. I want to speak up but I can't. It will be hard to balance today's culture with what I know is best.
Family sizes are also smaller which is relevant. I would love to have a large family but in today's world its not feasible. I told my husband there was no way I was only having one kid because I need that one kid to understand how insignificant he is in the grand scheme of things. I wouldn't be who I was today if it weren't for my two brothers. They played such a huge role in my social and emotional development.
A lot will depend on the parents and the family dynamics. My parents were great parents but we were not their entire lives. From my mom being Chinese, their approach was that the elders in the family came first. So if my parents had their friends over, we were expected to be quiet, polite and well-behaved. And we were. It was a very old school upbringing, the whole "children should be seen and not heard" mentality. And if I wasn't interested in the adult activities when their friends were over, I could always retreat into my room to read a book.
That's how I was raised too, and I'm as American as a bald eagle sitting on an apple pie. Sadly, I think my parents took things too far in the opposite direction (from today's parents, that is). So when only adults came over, without my friends who were their kids, my only option was to sit alone in a separate room, reading a book or doodling on scrap paper. Or bothering the adults, if I somehow decided that getting in trouble was worth it. It usually wasn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sassygirl18
The cultural aspect is interesting to contemplate. In American culture now, the child is the center of the universe and the entire family revolves around his life, needs and wants. Not to sound like an old curmudgeon, but it wasn't like this when I was a child (I am in my early 50s). The parents were the center of the family and the kids revolved around the parents' lives, needs and wants. Our parents' role was to care for us, protect us, teach, us, etc. but it was very clear who the center of the universe was, and it was not us.
My family was very much parent-centric---just like yours was---and I'm a... well, look at my screen name. My parents didn't really entertain me, nor should they be expected to. I had many toys at home, had several friends on the same block, and was enrolled in swim lessons. But all the toys, friends, and lessons in the world can never replace like-minded same-age siblings living with you. The siblings who can comfort you when your parents berate you for some perceived sight. The siblings who can join you for a board game just because. The siblings who can help you with homework without yelling at you. And so on. Plus, my friends had their own lives, and couldn't be expected to be available any time I needed a partner to play a game with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brocco
Family sizes are also smaller which is relevant. I would love to have a large family but in today's world its not feasible. I told my husband there was no way I was only having one kid because I need that one kid to understand how insignificant he is in the grand scheme of things. I wouldn't be who I was today if it weren't for my two brothers. They played such a huge role in my social and emotional development.
I'm an only child. Which means I was bored silly a lot of the time while growing up. My parents never had a second kid, no matter how much I begged and pleaded. Pets were out of the question too. So as a kid, I dreamed of having a huge family in one house, a la "Brady Bunch", minus the step-family aspect. When that didn't materialize, I decided to be staunchly childfree, rather than have only one child and subject him/her to the loneliness and boredom I experienced while growing up.
I have 2 brothers and we didn't really play together or help each other with homework. With kids, a lot of the sibling relationship is strife and competing for attention from their parents, fighting over possessions, trying to get them away from you, etc. I think only children have a romanticized idea of what having siblings is like. I didn't find companionship in my brothers. I found it outside of the home, in my friends.
I'm an only child. Which means I was bored silly a lot of the time while growing up. My parents never had a second kid, no matter how much I begged and pleaded. Pets were out of the question too. So as a kid, I dreamed of having a huge family in one house, a la "Brady Bunch", minus the step-family aspect. When that didn't materialize, I decided to be staunchly childfree, rather than have only one child and subject him/her to the loneliness and boredom I experienced while growing up.
I'm the oldest of three and IMO you didn't miss all that much by not having siblings. We all had different personalities, interests and my mother would try to make us be best friends. The whole "blood is thicker than water" thing. And my response to that (internally) was "you can't pick out your family, but you can pick your friends." Neither of my sisters ever became my best friend or play buddy. However, one of my best friends in grade school was a boy who was really smart. He was the first person I ever knew with an electric guitar, he also played cello, piano and could play blind-folded double chess. We would go out on our bicycles and go rock-hunting. Meanwhile, at home in the afternoons, my sisters and I would fight over what to watch on tv.
And yes, while I have drifted away from my sisters (geographically, life goals, and emotionally), I have some very close friends who are like family to me and more supportive emotionally than my sisters ever were.
Another plus of a growing up with periods of solitude is that I really REALLY enjoy my own company and I have a ton of self-confidence. I do like interesting, productive and considerate people, but I am also fine on my own. I still love books and I enjoy hunting and research antiques. I've made a few road trips across the US picking antiques and only in a Civic hatchback in the company of a dog. Those trips were pure heaven for me! I've also gone picking in the company of friends, and there were too many compromises made with setting the pace of the shopping and where to eat and sleep.
I think that growing up in a parent-centric household worked well for me. I became an adult with more realistic expectations of how the rest of the world might treat me. And I was also able to pick my own path and not care what others might think of me.
And because I was taught to respect my family elders, I function better in the workplace than the millennials who are all wound up being bossed around by our managers. Yes, I will internally disagree with them, but at the end of the day, I never wanted to be a manager with all the headaches that come with that position.
I think that growing up in a parent-centric household worked well for me. I became an adult with more realistic expectations of how the rest of the world might treat me. And I was also able to pick my own path and not care what others might think of me.
And because I was taught to respect my family elders, I function better in the workplace than the millennials who are all wound up being bossed around by our managers. Yes, I will internally disagree with them, but at the end of the day, I never wanted to be a manager with all the headaches that come with that position.
Your point is sound, but I do think it's possible to take things too far in the parent-centric direction. That's what my family did. I was told, in no uncertain terms, that I had no voice while growing up. Well, in practice, I could sometimes insist on a specific dish for dinner, and such, but for the most part, I really did have no voice.
It made me a "convenient" child, no doubt, but it hurt me in the workplace as an adult. Due to my fear of questioning authority, I ended up doing things that were unethical or put my health in danger, because the boss told me to and I "couldn't" say no. If anything, I learned to function better in the workplace and even started earning more money, after I built up the courage to push back against unreasonable orders and make arguments for higher pay.
In the end, I had little experience interacting with kids in a family context, causing me to become childfree today. Which will cause a big rift with my current friends, when they start having kids.
Last edited by MillennialUrbanist; 03-16-2018 at 09:33 AM..
And my husband and I are childfree despite both of us being one of three siblings.... and my husband's father was also parent-centric, saying the usual "I can always make another one to replace you."
My mother also said:
1. I am your parent, not your friend.
2. Parenting styles alternated generations. Her father spoiled her (she was the oldest child), so therefore she was going to be strict with us.
3. Your job as my child is to go to school. Try hard and do it well, and your family will always support youn going to school. Goof off and get poor grades, go out and get a job and pay me rent.
I suppose this discussion is an example of the grass being always greener etc...
Anyway, back to the original topic, it would be much easier to keep a friendship with new parents after the initial labour intensive infant care period has passed and the parents aren't spoiling their kids and putting them at the center of their universe.
My wife and I are in mid -to-late 30's. We are rather firm about not wanting to have kids of our own. Neither of us has that parenting instinct that seems to take over most "normal" people.
In the last couple of years more and more of our friends are starting to have babies. They have been good friends, for years, and have meant a lot to us. Our worlds were intertwined with theirs to a larger degree I am comfortable with acknowledging. However, I cannot even begin to understand the thought process that one goes through when deciding to have their own children.I know that sounds strange to most, but it's just not a part of my DNA.
Anyways, I know folks like that are out there so this is addressed to them. In your experience, is it worth making an effort to preserve friendships with new parents? Or is that a lost battle that should just be ceded in advance, as painful as it may sound?
Input by those, who are childless by choice, would be much appreciated. It is starting to feel a bit lonely.I would appreciate your stories about navigating that point in your life when most of humanity took that parenting fork in the road.
(As a disclaimer, I shun away from the term "childfree" because it seems to equate to "child hater" (judging by the content of childfree forums). It is part of my core values to not hate any class of beings. We even sincerely find children adorable, at least after 2 years of age or so. I just feel zero attraction to the path of parenthood and, frankly, do not feel that we have either emotional or economic resources to walk that path well in this world we find ourselves in.)
If you expect them to have anywhere near the time and attention for you that they once did, you are right, the relationship is doomed. At first, if you want to have a "baby-centered" relationship with them, where you see them a little, and it's centered around the baby, that might work. But soon they will be focused on getting together with people who have children the same age as their own, that they meet through daycare, nursery, school, activities, etc - all focused on the children.
This is just reality. I remember how annoyed my spouse's best friend was, when we had our first and we just didn't answer the phone for about two months. And that spouse, before we had our own, said about his sister, when she had little children, "She just spends altogether too much time invested in those kids!" Ha ha ha - boy did he have an epiphany once we had our own!
Remember those intense late high school relationships, and what happened to them after you went to different colleges? That's kind of what it'll be like. You can try to stay in touch, and maybe they'll resurface in about 15 to 20 years or so, depending upon how many kids they have. But while they have kids, it's very intense for them.
Yes - utterly doomed. They can't understand how YOU can't understand their decision and "journey"! And they certainly can't understand how you'd think friendship could trump a baby! It is a lost battle and even if you do ever get together you'll have nothing to talk about except the baby and what color poop they have and the latest "blowout" - don't even ask what that is if you don't know.
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