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RJ, what you write is truly incredible. "Decent quality" women, by your definition, are "average looking or better... not overweight.... and maybe belong to a top tier sorority"? Women have been shamed into pursuing careers and becoming self-supporting, instead of marrying young and becoming (dependent) home makers? I can only imagine what the women who have had the misfortune of coming into contact with you have had to put up with.
RJ, it may be a shock to you, but women go to college and pursue careers for the same reasons that men do. They want fulfilling careers and financial independence. Women are real people, even as human as you (or more so). We just have different anatomy, but I assure you, we really are full-fledged human beings. Women want self-sufficiency so that they don't have to be trapped in bad marriages to jerks who think as you do! The women of my generation (late baby boom) saw our mothers go from being dependent housewives who had no control over the family finances, because the man earned the money, to becoming independent career women who had a say in their lives, because they made an income, too. And we learned, be able to take care of yourself and any children you might have, because life throws curveballs at you, and you may not have a husband supporting the family. Oh, and by the way, single women in their 20s have several sequential sex partners for the same reason that men do! Because they want to have a sex life. They just have a lot fewer partners than men do, because they seek relationships, not just sex. Perhaps some men want to play the field until they're 40, and then marry a 20 yr old naive village virgin when they decide they want a family, but not all. Some consider their wives to be full partners in life - but of course, those are the men who consider women to be human beings of equal worth to men, as opposed to Barbie doll cutouts to be used for men's purposes.
As for religious communities, the reason that these marriages stay intact longer, on average, is because of extreme social pressure in these tight-knit communities for the women to stay in unhappy marriages, married to men who cheat, give them STDs, beat them, fail as husbands and fathers. Yes, slaves stayed in the master-slave relationship for life - because they had no choice in the matter!
Usually someone who thinks the way that you do would just go insane thinking that your tax dollars would be supporting an unmarried teenager and her baby. Somehow, you've managed to draw an equivalency between an 18 yr old, immature young woman with no visible means of support having a baby on the taxpayer's dime as a single teen mom, and educated, self-supporting, taxpaying adult women who decide to get out of a bad marriage, at no cost whatever to the taxpayers.
I can only imagine what your life has been like. If you have daughters, I pity them.
I can't rep you right now, have to spread the love first.
As for religious communities, the reason that these marriages stay intact longer, on average, is because of extreme social pressure in these tight-knit communities for the women to stay in unhappy marriages, married to men who cheat, give them STDs, beat them, fail as husbands and fathers. Yes, slaves stayed in the master-slave relationship for life - because they had no choice in the matter!
Usually someone who thinks the way that you do would just go insane thinking that your tax dollars would be supporting an unmarried teenager and her baby. Somehow, you've managed to draw an equivalency between an 18 yr old, immature young woman with no visible means of support having a baby on the taxpayer's dime as a single teen mom, and educated, self-supporting, taxpaying adult women who decide to get out of a bad marriage, at no cost whatever to the taxpayers.
What you said about religious communities is generally false. Are there a few bad apples within religious communities? Of course there are. If you look at hardcore practitioners of various Christianity groups, Orthodox churches, and even Orthodox Jews, there is a generally more healthy ecosystem towards relations between the sexes than in the secular West.
In general, I agree with the majority opinion on why the OP is getting negative feedback, but don't agree with the general rationale behind it. When you bring up the notion of tax dollars, I would not be happy about supporting an unmarried teenager and a baby. However, your blanket statement excusing women with college degrees who spend their college years and 20s running up big partner counts, getting married in their late 20s/early 30s, having 1-2 kids, and divorcing the provider type male because he isn't as exciting as the guys she was having sex with her 20s due to she's bored now as she's now ~40 isn't fair. There are actually longer term consequences to the taxpayer for that behavior. Children raised by single moms have worse outcomes by so many metrics, that even single moms of higher socioeconomic status do not deserve a blanket statement excusing their behavior. Often times, it wasn't a bad marriage they were leaving. These higher socioeconomic women are leaving marriages often for selfish reasons and due to their own flawed psychological perspectives.
What you said about religious communities is generally false. Are there a few bad apples within religious communities? Of course there are. If you look at hardcore practitioners of various Christianity groups, Orthodox churches, and even Orthodox Jews, there is a generally more healthy ecosystem towards relations between the sexes than in the secular West.
In general, I agree with the majority opinion on why the OP is getting negative feedback, but don't agree with the general rationale behind it. When you bring up the notion of tax dollars, I would not be happy about supporting an unmarried teenager and a baby. However, your blanket statement excusing women with college degrees who spend their college years and 20s running up big partner counts, getting married in their late 20s/early 30s, having 1-2 kids, and divorcing the provider type male because he isn't as exciting as the guys she was having sex with her 20s due to she's bored now as she's now ~40 isn't fair. There are actually longer term consequences to the taxpayer for that behavior. Children raised by single moms have worse outcomes by so many metrics, that even single moms of higher socioeconomic status do not deserve a blanket statement excusing their behavior. Often times, it wasn't a bad marriage they were leaving. These higher socioeconomic women are leaving marriages often for selfish reasons and due to their own flawed psychological perspectives.
I was a teacher and my late husband was a trial attorney. Among our friends, co-workers and neighbors who got divorced, to my knowledge, not one "higher socioeconomic woman" got divorced for selfish reasons.
Unless you count my co-worker whose husband was a drunken, philanderer who lost multiple jobs due to being jailed for DUIs and/or drunken bar fights (several jail sentences were six months long).
Or my other co-worker whose husband was physically abusive and several times threatened her life with a loaded gun to her head (frankly, I would have left the very first time that I was threatened with a loaded gun to my head).
Or my neighbor whose husband suddenly moved out of state with his much younger lover (he just left without a word to his wife and young children after draining their bank accounts).
Or the husband of a friend who lost his job and then lied about it for almost a full year and took out loans totaling almost $100,000 (to hide the fact that had been fired).
If you consider those selfish reasons to get a divorce and connected to a woman's "flawed psychological perspective" then you are right. But I doubt if very many people would agree with you.
Last edited by germaine2626; 11-08-2018 at 03:28 PM..
I answered that in the post you quoted. I connected every point to the situation of the OP. Having kids early is not a bad thing if judged alone. Feminist influences in society have deemed early pregnancy to be a bad thing. The OP is partially being judged negatively based upon flawed cultural influences. Her getting pregnant young isn't bad. Her getting pregnant young in a less stable situation is not good. Essentially, I agree with the majority opinion, but I disagree with the path taken to the majority opinion.
^ It actually can be, as statistics/health data show, for both the mother and the infant. Yes, judged alone. All by itself. Not just socioeconomically, I'm talking biologically/physically. That's not majority opinion. That's science/medicine.
I always get a kick out of folks who go for the "Well the research says...." shtick and completely ignore that the research is only as consistent as the people who are studied in that particular piece of research. It shows the lack of effort they put in to really find the "truth," so to speak. There so many unknown unknown and variables that are unaccounted for. RJ, is just trying to push the "Men are providers and women should just stay in their place' propaganda as usual. He never acknowledges the studies that actually falsify the evidence he's trying to use to push his narrative.
Every year studies come out to falsify and disprove research from previous years. All it shows is that people are evolving and everyone is not the same. The field of epigenetics is a good source for this. Why some people who are so hell bent on using "science" to back up their claims and ignore other science that disproves it, is beyond me. Truly unbiased people look at ALL of the research and all of the "facts," not just pieces that confirm their beliefs. I'll stop there since this is off topic. Just my 0.02 cents.
^ It actually can be, as statistics/health data show, for both the mother and the infant. Yes, judged alone. All by itself. Not just socioeconomically, I'm talking biologically/physically. That's not majority opinion. That's science/medicine.
Not to veer totally off-topic, but does our man RJ realize that in pre-feminist Colonial America, the average age of a woman at the time of her first marriage was between twenty and twenty-three years of age? Granted, more than a few of them went to altar post-haste due to a surprise pregnancy, but still, RJ's notion of kinder, kuchen, kirche (children, kitchen, church) as being best for young women is questionable at best; flawed at worst. It's a rare woman who wishes to be like Anna Duggar, trapped in a marriage with a continually growing brood of children with no means of support should she choose to leave her creepy, cheating molester of a husband.
Not to veer totally off-topic, but does our man RJ realize that in pre-feminist Colonial America, the average age of a woman at the time of her first marriage was between twenty and twenty-three years of age? Granted, more than a few of them went to altar post-haste due to a surprise pregnancy, but still, RJ's notion of kinder, kuchen, kirche (children, kitchen, church) as being best for young women is questionable at best; flawed at worst. It's a rare woman who wishes to be like Anna Duggar, trapped in a marriage with a continually growing brood of children with no means of support should she choose to leave her creepy, cheating molester of a husband.
How interesting! I don't know if RJ knows it, but I didn't.
I think that the creeping influence of leftist, Marxist, and feminist ideologies has shamed women into pursuing the career track and the accomplishments track over their more natural, nurturing state of being. Having a career is not all it is cracked up to be. Quite simply, the career track has a lot of downsides. It is extremely stressful. If I had a choice to have not a career, I would not have a career. I need to have a career because I am a man. There is fierce mating competition.
Going against one's own natural state of being has mental health consequences. Have you ever met, interacted with on a dating app, or been on a date with a childless, career-centric woman over 30? They are some of the most miserable human beings that you will ever encounter. I've had the misfortune of having some of these interactions and I will say that dealing with them is often insufferable. You might have a reasonably pleasant at first interaction with one, but then they tell you about what projects they have going on at work that are time consuming, and then what business trips are forthcoming and that you won't be able to see them again for 2 weeks, and this type of behavior is certainly reduces attraction. It's not feminine behavior at all.
I would venture to say that not all forum posters have had the experience of trying to interact with career women in a mating scenario. Those that have not should consider themselves fortunate. Housewives who have family centric lives tend to be happier than unmarried career women in their 30s and 40s and dual income spouses. There's nothing more fulfilling than making a home a wonderful place to live and raising well adjusted children. While I think the average person has more contact with the working mom with children than with the childless late 20s/30+ career woman, one only needs to go to Meetup.com groups or post a profile on Bumble to see these career track single women. It's often depressing.
To the final point, men 35-50 would like to have a 20-24 year old girlfriend. For a typical 40 year old man who is childless, dating a 20-25 year old woman is a better bet than dating a 35-40 year old woman, for many of the reasons illustrated above, not to mention that a lot of 35-40 year old women have children from previous relationships. Most 35-50 year old men have not achieved enough to keep a 20-24 year old woman interested.
Since it is a biological imperative to reproduce in one's early 20s, not having sex before marriage, marrying young, and following the biological imperative gives a couple the greatest chance of having positive outcomes. This sort of behavior is usually found in religious communities.
OP, like many young mothers, is criticized for an early pregnancy, especially when there may not be stability in the father situation. What never happens is that you see a woman who goes to and graduates from college, has promiscuous sex through a good portion of her 20s, gets married to a less exciting provider type guy as compared to the guys that she was having promiscuous sex with in college and her early to mid 20s around 30, pops out 1-2 children, and then divorces the provider type around 40. No one is ever critical of her because she got a college education and can pay bills and will probably receive some money from the father via the divorce court system, but that woman is doing harm to the well being of her child by being a single mom. How does this woman get a free pass in culture whereas the early in life mom is often roundly criticized?
Wow. There is so much BS here it’s hard to know where to start. First off, I’d never date a woman who wanted kids at all because I have no interest. My fiancé and GF of 7+ years also doesn’t want kids and I’m glad she’s career oriented. I find it a personal turn off when a girl has no real interest in the world besides popping out some kids. If that’s just one thing she does, great, but you act like women shouldn’t be anything BUT baby factories and that’s somehow a natural thing. It’s not because we’re not animals, we’re sentient beings with the ability to do more than pointlessly reproduce. What is the end goal of that?! If that’s all there was, may as well kill yourself after your kids leave home. You describe the pointless existence of animals and why 90% of us still don’t feel bad eating delicious meat because animals aren’t people lol.
It’s not any sort of “biological imperative” to pop out kids in your 20s, no. That’s SOME people’s goal, but for me even thinking about having a kid would make me so turned off I wouldn’t even be able to have sex at all. Nothing kills the mood like thinking of dirty diapers and sleepless nights. Nothing is worth that!
You’re making another error in judgment by thinking that because your career is meaningless, it must be true for everyone. It’s not. I have directed movies and music videos and created works of art, all while enjoying the company of other really talented people and having something to show for the hard work at the end of the day. Nothing is more satisfying than that and a great career that brings personal fulfillment is a lot more conducive to living a great life than just doing what everyone else does and popping out a few kids and just making a living. That’s the absolute minimum level of living and what is there to show for it at the end of your life? You kicked the bucket down the field, yay, life goes on for someone else. That’s extremely empty if you ask me.
I’d much rather date a career woman who has interesting things to talk about rather than soccer practice, minivans, and dirty diapers. No thanks!
PS: There is NO such thing as leaving a marriage for “selfish reasons.” That literally doesn’t make any sense and doesn’t even compute. It’s YOUR life, any reason that makes you unhappy in a situation is good enough to change said situation. You only live one life, nobody should live an unhappy one just to appease other people. You seem to have this view that women should just pop out kids and be happy with that no matter what because that’s their job. It isn’t their job. It’s a choice.
Last edited by JonathanLB; 11-08-2018 at 09:27 PM..
I haven't read every post here, but a couple of things that strike me:
1. Having a baby at 18 isn't a guaranteed sentence to a hard life but it's a rough start. A niece had one at 19 and my sister (the grandmother) described Baby Daddy as "a sweet little guy with the brains of a paramecium". That was being kind. They eventually broke up and it was only with the massive support of my sister and BIL that she got to where she is today- finished her degree, became a radiation therapist, married an architect and they had another child together. That's rare. How is the OP planning to fund daycare? Will there be enough left over?
2. I was one of those terrible women RJ mentioned who chose to have a career and postpone motherhood. DS was born when I was 31. His father turned out to have more problems with alcoholism and verbal abuse (both DS and me) than I could handle and was unemployed the last 5 years of the marriage. So, I was "selfish" and divorced him. Not once did I have to rely on any taxpayer programs that were needs-based. I had a very good career and was able to support DS, even when the public school system failed him and he needed a private military boarding school for HS. I paid for that, too. DS is now married, has a good job and is a wonderful husband and father. Their marriage, BTW, IS traditional and they belong to a conservative evangelical church. I asked DS what the pastor would advise in abusive marriages and he said the pastor would advise divorce because the marriage vows had already been broken. I do think that in that church they're far more careful about whom they marry in the first place. DS and DDIL's marriage vows included "I will never divorce you".
I wish the OP luck and a good life and I REALLY hope that she and the fiance actually do marry and provide some stability. I wouldn't be one of the people posting negative comments on FB. At this point she needs support.
I was one of those terrible women RJ mentioned who chose to have a career and postpone motherhood. DS was born when I was 31. His father turned out to have more problems with alcoholism and verbal abuse (both DS and me) than I could handle and was unemployed the last 5 years of the marriage. So, I was "selfish" and divorced him. Not once did I have to rely on any taxpayer programs that were needs-based. I had a very good career and was able to support DS, even when the public school system failed him and he needed a private military boarding school for HS. I paid for that, too. DS is now married, has a good job and is a wonderful husband and father. Their marriage, BTW, IS traditional and they belong to a conservative evangelical church. I asked DS what the pastor would advise in abusive marriages and he said the pastor would advise divorce because the marriage vows had already been broken. I do think that in that church they're far more careful about whom they marry in the first place. DS and DDIL's marriage vows included "I will never divorce you".
It is pretty common for stories to be shared about awful men. Undoubtedly, there are some bad men out there. However, no one talks about the men. A lot of men themselves suffer silently. I speak up. There are a lot of men who have been destroyed by divorces. A lot of these divorced guys were guys who were pretty ordinary. They were not abusers and addicts. They had decent jobs. Women initiate the vast majority of divorces. With a lot of these ordinary men, their greatest fault was being ordinary. In a sphere's where women's romantic options usually exceed men's, if a man fails to bring constant novelty and excitement to a woman in a relationship, it's pretty easy for a woman to feel boredom and entertain one of the many offers she can get either through social media or her real world connects. She can divorce the man and the family court system will roll out the red carpet for her.
It is unlikely that the OP's scenario is described in the above paragraph. I'd certainly like to know more about the marriage component of the whole thing. Is he marrying her because she got pregnant? That still happens these days, albeit less frequently. I'm not sure how I feel about that, and I think my feelings are reflected in the way the outside world views marriages due to a pregnancy. I think the common sentiment now about that is that people shouldn't marry due to a pregnancy. I'd say that marriages that occur as a result of a pregnancy now are perceived less favorably than favorably.
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