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Old 02-26-2019, 03:00 AM
bUU
 
Location: Georgia
11,915 posts, read 8,629,617 times
Reputation: 8374

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kokonutty View Post
I notice that the consensus of opinion here has gone in favor of not blindly accepting the advice of a professional simply because they have been schooled in that which is in question.
I notice that consensus isn't a good way of judging the validity of anything, especially these days. Mob mentality is the lifeblood of our society, now, and things like the logic of "expertise with objectivity" get overridden by trendy patterns of thought that are shaped more by people's petty desire to have more control over the complex world within which they live than they are shaped by rationality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kokonutty View Post
I would also note that the OP has not been heard from in well over a week and through almost half the posts.
One of the realities of online forums is that OPs don't own threads or really have any say over what the thread ends up being about. So whether the OP sticks around or not doesn't/shouldn't matter.
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Old 02-26-2019, 03:16 PM
 
6,877 posts, read 3,819,973 times
Reputation: 14578
Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU View Post
I notice that consensus isn't a good way of judging the validity of anything, especially these days. Mob mentality is the lifeblood of our society, now, and things like the logic of "expertise with objectivity" get overridden by trendy patterns of thought that are shaped more by people's petty desire to have more control over the complex world within which they live than they are shaped by rationality.

One of the realities of online forums is that OPs don't own threads or really have any say over what the thread ends up being about. So whether the OP sticks around or not doesn't/shouldn't matter.
If you would refer to the OP you would find that the writer, who identified himself as a professional, asked for opinions and experiences of why someone would ignore the opinions of a professional. He got exactly what he asked for; mostly denying any sense of infallibility of professionals. At least the vast majority of posters have kept very close to the topic as introduced. As is often the case, when those starting topics here do not get the reinforcement they are seeking they often disappear.
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Old 02-26-2019, 04:19 PM
Status: "Excited to move to Vegas!" (set 11 days ago)
 
Location: Beaverton, OR
5,442 posts, read 5,854,350 times
Reputation: 6096
Quote:
Originally Posted by PuppiesandKittens View Post
Have you ever disagreed with a professional (doctor, lawyer, etc.) about something in the professional's (but not your) field of expertise, and kept at it, just you against the professional? If so, why would you do that?

A leader of my homeowner's association decided to pick a fight with me about legal matters, such as interpreting legal documents. I'm a lawyer; he's not.

Well, guess who won that disagreement, after months of battling, and guess who lost that disagreement and incurred a lot of damages? Go figure. (Hint: I won, he lost, and he even lost his role in the association because of it.)

I'm curious as to why someone would pick a fight with a professional in the professional's field of expertise. If I disagree with my doctor, perhaps I'll get a second opinion...from another doctor, but I'm not going to fight with him about his medical opinion. Same for a computer scientist; if I disagree with him or her about some software, I may enlist another computer scientist to battle with him, but I'm not battling him myself because I know very little about software.

Thanks.
Because doctors don’t know anything about health and fitness relative to someone who does their reading, that’s why. My second best friend is a radiologist and even he told me fellow doctors don’t know much of anything when it comes to diet, exercise, etc. They take a tiny section of their entire school on that unless they’re specializing in the subject, so I wouldn’t debate a radiologist about something I know zero. But I’ve had a doctor tell me about health and fitness when he was a few years older than me but no older than 35, and he’s sitting there with a giant beer belly and I’m 12% body fat bench pressing 250+ pounds. You don’t need to do any more than look at us to tell who the expert is on fitness and it wasn’t him.

I’m pretty sure that’s the same doctor who said, “Well your BMI is...” and I chuckled before asking, “You’re not seriously using an outdated population model for an individual judgment are you?” I will tell doctors right away if they mention BMI I’ll find a new doctor because it shows a total lack of understanding of human physiology. Most athletes are overweight or even obese by the BMI; the only measure of fitness or fatness with regard to weight is body fat percentage, though you could use a waist-to-height ratio for a rough estimate. Even that works well. The BMI is a complete fail. So why would I argue with a doctor? Because I read more peer reviewed articles on fitness than they do and I know more about that subject than they do. They’re not experts and they’re like most people, prone to mistakes.

If a doctor told me I should have less salt, for no particular reason just because, of course I’d argue with them because they’re wrong. Salt isn’t whatsoever harmful to healthy adults and shouldn’t be monitored or worried about. Numerous studies have shown that summarized in “War on Salt” by Scientific American.

Whenever common sense contradicts a professional I’ll always argue with them. An HVAC contractor said you can’t get your AC to make it cooler than 20 degrees below the outside temperature. Anyone with 2 brain cells knows that’s wrong - it’s 65 degrees in every Vegas casino when it’s 115 out, so since I know he’s wrong of course I’d tell him that. You can’t cool the air passing over the system more than 20 degrees, yes, but you can cool 115 degree air to 95, then 95 to 75, etc. You can make it 65 inside absolutely no matter what temperature it is outside if you have the right system. They just wrong assumed I wouldn’t spend the money for that system, which is their loss

I can think of a million examples where I’ve been right and the “professional” has been wrong. I trust professionals to a point but it’s not beyond my own “BS detector.”
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Old 02-27-2019, 04:18 AM
bUU
 
Location: Georgia
11,915 posts, read 8,629,617 times
Reputation: 8374
Quote:
Originally Posted by kokonutty View Post
If you would refer to the OP ...
If you would refer to the beginning of the thread, you'll find I posted a reply to the OP within seven hours of it being posted, citing specifically that his personal bias was a firm and reasonable basis for questioning his professional expertise. That is completely consistent with what I wrote in the message to which you replied.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kokonutty View Post
He got exactly what he asked for; mostly denying any sense of infallibility of professionals. At least the vast majority of posters have kept very close to the topic as introduced. As is often the case, when those starting topics here do not get the reinforcement they are seeking they often disappear.
I think you are simply missing the point. What I'm saying is that many in the thread expressed a perspective just as indefensible as the OP. While the OP was elevating his own personal expertise far beyond where his own personal expertise should have been elevated, the responses by many attempted to degrade professional expertise, itself, far below where professional expertise should have been degraded. Instead of cutting through the middle of the matter, too many people went off course in the same way as the OP, just in the opposite direction.

Another example of a conversation in society where the loudest comments are outrageous, extreme claims on the fringes, and the rational middle is practically silent.
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Old 02-27-2019, 01:38 PM
 
6,877 posts, read 3,819,973 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU View Post
If you would refer to the beginning of the thread, you'll find I posted a reply to the OP within seven hours of it being posted, citing specifically that his personal bias was a firm and reasonable basis for questioning his professional expertise. That is completely consistent with what I wrote in the message to which you replied.

I think you are simply missing the point. What I'm saying is that many in the thread expressed a perspective just as indefensible as the OP. While the OP was elevating his own personal expertise far beyond where his own personal expertise should have been elevated, the responses by many attempted to degrade professional expertise, itself, far below where professional expertise should have been degraded. Instead of cutting through the middle of the matter, too many people went off course in the same way as the OP, just in the opposite direction.

Another example of a conversation in society where the loudest comments are outrageous, extreme claims on the fringes, and the rational middle is practically silent.
I made no reference to extreme comments; I referenced the majority of comments. I find just about all the comments directly on topic as requested in the OP. I again note that the OP appears to have discontinued his participation in his own thread.
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Old 02-27-2019, 07:51 PM
 
Location: Erie, PA
2,823 posts, read 1,234,014 times
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I generally don't argue with people who are experts on a subject since I usually trust their judjment on whatever matter I have seen them about.

I did argue with my doctor once though. He was refusing to listen to me and kept insisting on giving me a pregnancy test even though I told him that my tubes had been tied 19 years ago and I had been having all of the symptoms of menopause. He argued with me that I was probably pregnant and I argued with him that no, I was going through menopause. His nurse stepped in to save the day and helpfully suggested that maybe I should have both a pregnancy test AND a hormone profile done so we could figure out what was going on.

LOL it was menopause but I didn't gloat over being right

He might have been the expert but damn I knew what was going on with my own body!
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Old 02-28-2019, 03:31 AM
bUU
 
Location: Georgia
11,915 posts, read 8,629,617 times
Reputation: 8374
Quote:
Originally Posted by kokonutty View Post
I made no reference to extreme comments; I referenced the majority of comments.
At this point, it seems like you're working very hard to deliberately miss the point. I'll try again:

1. OP posted an extreme comment, elevating his own personal expertise far beyond where his own personal expertise should have been elevated.

2. The "majority of comments" that you mentioned were equally extreme, in the opposite direction, attempting to degrade professional expertise, itself, far below where professional expertise should be degraded.

That made this thread another example of a conversation in society where the loudest comments are outrageous, extreme claims on the fringes, and the rational middle is practically silent. That's the most important take-away from this thread... the fact that matters in our society - including HOA proceedings, such as what the OP relayed - are being shaped by ridiculously outlier perspectives instead of by a solid, moderate, reasoned view.
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Old 02-28-2019, 01:47 PM
 
6,877 posts, read 3,819,973 times
Reputation: 14578
Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU View Post
At this point, it seems like you're working very hard to deliberately miss the point. I'll try again:

1. OP posted an extreme comment, elevating his own personal expertise far beyond where his own personal expertise should have been elevated.

2. The "majority of comments" that you mentioned were equally extreme, in the opposite direction, attempting to degrade professional expertise, itself, far below where professional expertise should be degraded.

That made this thread another example of a conversation in society where the loudest comments are outrageous, extreme claims on the fringes, and the rational middle is practically silent. That's the most important take-away from this thread... the fact that matters in our society - including HOA proceedings, such as what the OP relayed - are being shaped by ridiculously outlier perspectives instead of by a solid, moderate, reasoned view.
I'm sorry you are so distracted by extreme comments that you're unable to see which way the tide is rolling. "Outlier perspectives" shape nothing until you choose to embrace them.

Have you seen the OP lately?
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Old 03-01-2019, 04:34 AM
bUU
 
Location: Georgia
11,915 posts, read 8,629,617 times
Reputation: 8374
Quote:
Originally Posted by kokonutty View Post
I'm sorry you are so distracted by extreme comments that you're unable to see which way the tide is rolling.
You're not really paying attention to the posts to which you are replying, are you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU View Post
I notice that consensus isn't a good way of judging the validity of anything, especially these days. Mob mentality is the lifeblood of our society, now, and things like the logic of "expertise with objectivity" get overridden by trendy patterns of thought that are shaped more by people's petty desire to have more control over the complex world within which they live than they are shaped by rationality.
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Old 03-01-2019, 06:43 AM
Status: "Be yourself. What's the alternative?" (set 1 day ago)
 
8,596 posts, read 10,790,522 times
Reputation: 12608
Hard facts to me have to be based on each individual. That's a lot of what "science" doesn't see or misses. Each person is unique and the science has to be applied per that. Just to believe that everything is true for everyone and we're all robots that need the same thing is ludicrous. I take it in, but have to process it through my own large number of experiences and gut instincts that can often say otherwise. I couldn't even say the number of times I followed my own intuition and it was right.
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