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Old 02-27-2011, 08:33 AM
 
Location: New Jersey
844 posts, read 2,669,835 times
Reputation: 659

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Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295 View Post
Why? The NJ employees met their contractual obligation. Their contributions were deducted from every paycheck. The state did not meet its obligations, plain & simple. Want to get the missing payments plus interest? So sue Christie Whitman.
Yes NJ employees met their contractural obligations through collective bargaining. The unions pushed for contract benefits which could not be sustained; it was a set up for failure, but the unions pushed and received. I'm no expert, but the state still would have had fiscal issues; the contributions were/are insufficient, and need to be increased. Arizona just increased employee contributions to 10.5%

Yes, we all agree the state did not do it's part, but neither did your unions. Now we have reality, and how do we fix it.
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Old 02-27-2011, 08:45 AM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
21,856 posts, read 27,128,289 times
Reputation: 8928
Quote:
Originally Posted by marc515 View Post
Yes NJ employees met their contractural obligations through collective bargaining. The unions pushed for contract benefits which could not be sustained; it was a set up for failure, but the unions pushed and received. I'm no expert, but the state still would have had fiscal issues; the contributions were/are insufficient, and need to be increased. Arizona just increased employee contributions to 10.5%

Yes, we all agree the state did not do it's part, but neither did your unions. Now we have reality, and how do we fix it.
The pensions in NJ were sustainable for generations, because the state met its obligations until Christie Whitman.

Not my unions. I never belonged. But I know people who are state & public employees. & they made every payment. I've known people from past generations who are now long deceased & they had the same set up & it went without a hitch. I know people in NC who are retired state employees & they have pretty much the same. There is no union involved here. You're barking up the wrong tree.
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Old 02-27-2011, 09:17 AM
 
Location: New Jersey
844 posts, read 2,669,835 times
Reputation: 659
Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295 View Post
The pensions in NJ were sustainable for generations, because the state met its obligations until Christie Whitman.

Not my unions. I never belonged. But I know people who are state & public employees. & they made every payment. I've known people from past generations who are now long deceased & they had the same set up & it went without a hitch. I know people in NC who are retired state employees & they have pretty much the same. There is no union involved here. You're barking up the wrong tree.
Agree that it was not a problem in NJ, and most likely other states until the politicians put thier grubby little hands in the pie.

However, I saw a report about the California retirement system, and the early retirement models were based on a shorter retiree life span, and since folks are living longer now, there arent enough contributions put in.

I have no idea if NC ha unions, and never said they did; there are many states that are not unized. I was only talking in general about the problems states are having with pensions.

Hey, all I know is those states like WI, CA, NJ, etc that are having fiscal and pension issues need to find a reasonable fix so workers can hopefully get close to what they were promised
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Old 02-27-2011, 10:06 AM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
21,856 posts, read 27,128,289 times
Reputation: 8928
Quote:
Originally Posted by marc515 View Post
Agree that it was not a problem in NJ, and most likely other states until the politicians put thier grubby little hands in the pie.

However, I saw a report about the California retirement system, and the early retirement models were based on a shorter retiree life span, and since folks are living longer now, there arent enough contributions put in.

I have no idea if NC ha unions, and never said they did; there are many states that are not unized. I was only talking in general about the problems states are having with pensions.

Hey, all I know is those states like WI, CA, NJ, etc that are having fiscal and pension issues need to find a reasonable fix so workers can hopefully get close to what they were promised
My mother was a Rosie the Riveter during WWII & worked in a union foundry. She always said that no union can get in where people are treated right, & I have found this to be the case in my own life.

I don't know details on CA, WI, or any other state with a pension problem, but I do know that NJ's problem is purely the result of crooked politics & greed. Christie Whitman is filthy rich, but she wanted that tax cut for herself & her filthy rich friends & didn't care who it hurt. Sort of like when she got a chunk of land next to her own estate declared off limits for building.

NC has not been big on unions, but they have made some inroads in recent years. Do a search on the Loray Mill strike of 1929 & you'll understand why.
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Old 02-27-2011, 03:33 PM
 
3,271 posts, read 2,626,536 times
Reputation: 1440
Quote:
Originally Posted by marc515 View Post
Someone would have to do the math and show us how it's in the best interest to have a pension fund vs a 401K. Will the pension actually grow enough to fund the pensions?
Well yeah, by definition if the pension fund is in a nonzero interest gaining savings account and there isn't any trickery or outright theft from the government (and that's a big if, I know), then it'll be adequately funded.

Quote:
To help the current underfunded situation states need to increase employee contributions. Arizona just increased employee contributions to 10.5 percent from 9.6 percent.
I'm not 100% on the particulars of the Arizona pension plan but I'm willing to bet it's been marketed as an investment instrument and that along with suicidally low tax revenues are at the bottom of why it's in dire straits.

Arizona is a case study in colossal mismanagement of government:

Tea party in the Sonora: For the future of G.O.P. governance, look to Arizona?By Ken Silverstein (Harper's Magazine)
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Old 03-03-2011, 06:09 PM
 
58 posts, read 203,240 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chance2jump View Post
Michigan is a heavy union state and has double digit unemployment.

North Carolina is not a untion state and has double digit unemployment.

Obviously, the argument that unions are destroying our nation is not based on anything beyond the perception that "unions are bad for business."
This is a good point. I would like to point out that even if all the unions were gotten rid of, it does not address the issue that there are over 2 BILLION people in India and China who are also not unionized and willing to work for less than a dollar a day. How is a non union America going to be able to compete with that? We can't. So even without the unions, you'd still have the globalization of capital and loss of jobs in the US. I think the answer is to reinstate tariffs on imported good, and stop subsidizing outsourcing of jobs with taxpayer dollars. Large companies get tax breaks to outsource, how can you beat that? Also, there is no attention being given to the problem of crashing municipal and state bonds and the pressure this is pointing on budgets. More money is going to pay the interest on those debts and that's crowding out government worker wages and pensions. States would like to default on obligations to their workers and pay the bondholders instead. That's what is causing the problems. There are solutions to this related to establishing a state bank, and possibly a state currency similar to what North Dakota has (whose economy is doing very well I might add, with a budget surplus) under 9th and 10th amendments of the Constitution, but that's for a different discussion. All of this is very interesting and should be open to debate. Everyone like to point their finger at the unions like they are the bad guy when it really makes no difference in the end.
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Old 03-04-2011, 09:32 AM
 
Location: On the brink of WWIII
21,094 posts, read 23,811,954 times
Reputation: 7812
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slinkycat View Post
This is a good point. I would like to point out that even if all the unions were gotten rid of, it does not address the issue that there are over 2 BILLION people in India and China who are also not unionized and willing to work for less than a dollar a day. How is a non union America going to be able to compete with that? We can't. So even without the unions, you'd still have the globalization of capital and loss of jobs in the US. I think the answer is to reinstate tariffs on imported good, and stop subsidizing outsourcing of jobs with taxpayer dollars. Large companies get tax breaks to outsource, how can you beat that? Also, there is no attention being given to the problem of crashing municipal and state bonds and the pressure this is pointing on budgets. More money is going to pay the interest on those debts and that's crowding out government worker wages and pensions. States would like to default on obligations to their workers and pay the bondholders instead. That's what is causing the problems. There are solutions to this related to establishing a state bank, and possibly a state currency similar to what North Dakota has (whose economy is doing very well I might add, with a budget surplus) under 9th and 10th amendments of the Constitution, but that's for a different discussion. All of this is very interesting and should be open to debate. Everyone like to point their finger at the unions like they are the bad guy when it really makes no difference in the end.

I would work for less than a dollar a day if it PAYS my bills...
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Old 03-04-2011, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati
3,340 posts, read 5,906,390 times
Reputation: 2069
Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
I would work for less than a dollar a day if it PAYS my bills...
yeah, it doesn't pay their bills. read up about third world labor.
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Old 03-06-2011, 09:17 AM
 
36,471 posts, read 15,965,403 times
Reputation: 8281
Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
Looks like the people lost....




But the politicians have NO PROBLEMS with their costly salaries and LIFETIME benefits....and 60%-75% of salary for retirement after only serving ONE TERM??


Back up your claim.
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Old 03-06-2011, 09:47 AM
 
36,471 posts, read 15,965,403 times
Reputation: 8281
Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295 View Post
My mother was a Rosie the Riveter during WWII & worked in a union foundry. She always said that no union can get in where people are treated right, & I have found this to be the case in my own life.

I don't know details on CA, WI, or any other state with a pension problem, but I do know that NJ's problem is purely the result of crooked politics & greed. Christie Whitman is filthy rich, but she wanted that tax cut for herself & her filthy rich friends & didn't care who it hurt. Sort of like when she got a chunk of land next to her own estate declared off limits for building.

NC has not been big on unions, but they have made some inroads in recent years. Do a search on the Loray Mill strike of 1929 & you'll understand why.
Several posters have blamed Christie Whitman for NJ's problem. I know nothing of NJ's history but to say she has not been the govonor of NJ for over 10 years. Why didn't the govornors after her changed the system back to where it was before she changed it?
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