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Old 06-06-2012, 04:54 PM
 
1,425 posts, read 3,635,449 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbancharlotte View Post
My point is simple. If the majority of flag supporters were flying this "piece of cloth" in the name of anything that I've mentioned above, things would be very different. However, the first thing that comes out of a flag supporter's mouth is "my Southern heritage". Supporters of the flag can not expect us to forget the past while they gleefully wave the past in our faces. You can't have it both ways.
Why can't I be proud of my forefathers who came to this country... with little of nothing? I've had indentured servants as young as a 4 year old boy who was ripped from his mother's arms for being a 'bastard' in England because she couldn't prove her marriage. Does this mean I should become indignant and offended when I see the Union Jack?

I do not live in the past, but I take the lessons and strength the past teaches me and put it into my present.

The confederate flag was used to represent the 11 states that chose secession from the United States. The reasons for the secession boils down to money. Slavery was the flash and glamour of the war (very similar to terrorism to the current war). The north increased taxes and processing fees of the cotton, tobacco and indigo that were major cash crops... the south wanted to refine these crops and sell themselves.... basically cutting out the northern middle men. Slavery was what made the headlines and *poof* the civil war has become about slavery.

Am I proud that any man owned another man 150 years ago... no. Am I proud that my family has survived almost 400 years through famine, drought, taxing, burning by Sherman's men, floods, hurricanes, and a host of other trials in a land that was almost impervious to human dominance with alligators, swamps, and other natural challenges.... yes... very proud.

I see things every day that I find not of my liking, nor of my tastes and some quite offensive. But the person/people expressing that opinion has the right to express it... just as I have the right to extract myself from the situation. I also have the right to express myself in any way I see fit, as long as I am willing to accept the consequences of my actions.

The boy in the OP expressed himself, I don't recall him shrinking from the consequences.... so why shouldn't he be able to follow his constitutional right of freedom of speech?
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Old 06-06-2012, 06:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockinmomma View Post
The confederate flag was used to represent the 11 states that chose secession from the United States. The reasons for the secession boils down to money. Slavery was the flash and glamour of the war (very similar to terrorism to the current war). The north increased taxes and processing fees of the cotton, tobacco and indigo that were major cash crops... the south wanted to refine these crops and sell themselves.... basically cutting out the northern middle men. Slavery was what made the headlines and *poof* the civil war has become about slavery.
You're mixing some stuff up here. The nullification crisis regarding protective tariffs was more than 30 years before the war and Calhoun lost that battle to another Southerner - Andrew Jackson.

While that episode contributed to some tensions between the two regions, it came no where near causing a war. The war was fought specifically to defend slavery and promote the extension of slavery. If you don't believe me, believe the Southerners who actually seceded. In every state they list slavery as their primary concern when seceding.

Declaration of Causes of Secession

Like It Or Not, Historians Agree Slavery Caused U.S. Civil War
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Old 06-06-2012, 06:51 PM
 
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Coped is exactly right. Anyone who contends the Civil War was not caused by the slavery issue needs to read a real history book or two.

But I say again, you all have the right to offend people all you want. And you can justify it any way you like. And those of us with a little compassion for others will continue to see it for what it is, and realize we were raised to be better than that.
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Old 06-06-2012, 06:54 PM
 
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I'm not going to be drawn into a posting war... we can go back and forth for another 21 pages. We can both pull up websites to support our view. The experts are still arguing about it, long after any participants and their children are dead.

My response still stands... this boy can express himself as long as he is willing to take responsibility for any actions he takes.

I am proud of my heritage, just as I assume you are of yours, just as this boy has a right to be of his...
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Old 06-06-2012, 06:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockinmomma View Post
I'm not going to be drawn into a posting war... we can go back and forth for another 21 pages. We can both pull up websites to support our view. The experts are still arguing about it, long after any participants and their children are dead.
Not really. The vast majority of historians are in agreement that the Civil War was about slavery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockinmomma View Post
My response still stands... this boy can express himself as long as he is willing to take responsibility for any actions he takes.
I'll agree with you that he has the right to make a fool of himself, but the school has the right to ban inflammatory and vulgar symbols. I would categorize the Confederate flag as vulgarity.
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Old 06-06-2012, 07:14 PM
 
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Submitted without comment:

Confederate Flag Activates Racist Mindset
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Old 06-06-2012, 07:15 PM
 
Location: Up above the world so high!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arbyunc View Post
Coped is exactly right. Anyone who contends the Civil War was not caused by the slavery issue needs to read a real history book or two.

But I say again, you all have the right to offend people all you want. And you can justify it any way you like. And those of us with a little compassion for others will continue to see it for what it is, and realize we were raised to be better than that.
Oh come on. Initially even Lincoln didn't want to free the slaves.

States rights and self-determination where at the heart of why so many fought and died for the south.

The very idea that the average Confederate fought simply to preserve slavery is just downright wrong.

Think about it, why in the world would men who didn't even own slaves fight just for that reason?

The rank and file of the Southern armies was composed of farmers and laborers who volunteered to protect home and everything dear from Northern invaders, to keep their traditions and be left alone - plain and simple.

Trust me my friend, most of us are only trying to honor our heritage and ancestors when we fly the flag, that's all. I am truly sorry to anyone who is offended by that.
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Old 06-06-2012, 07:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coped View Post
Not really. The vast majority of historians are in agreement that the Civil War was about slavery.



I'll agree with you that he has the right to make a fool of himself, but the school has the right to ban inflammatory and vulgar symbols. I would categorize the Confederate flag as vulgarity.
look at historians and books that aren't monetarily motivated. I never said slavery wasn't an issue, just not the "only reason" as the mass media would have you believe. And slavery was not so much a social issue (as it is portrayed modernly) but again, as a monetary issue.

As for your opinion that a historic flag is vulgar... opinions are one of the reasons we have free speech... fortunately, no one man or woman can determine what is vulgar for someone else.
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Old 06-06-2012, 07:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovesMountains View Post
Oh come on. Initially even Lincoln didn't want to free the slaves.
That's splitting hairs. Lincoln was ALWAYS in favor of the gradual end to slavery. It was the core issue that the Republican Party was founded on in the 1850s. The North went to war to preserve the Union. And preserving the Union, Lincoln discovered, required the immediate end of slavery.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lovesMountains View Post
States rights was self-determination where at the heart of why so many fought and died for the south.
They wanted Southern states to have special rights TO HOLD SLAVES. That was what the war was fought about. Read the documents I posted and you will see.

Furthermore, the Confederates had little respect for the states' rights of the Northern states. Southerners wanted to prevent Northern states from passing laws that did not recognize slavery as valid. That was a real protection of the Northern state's rights, huh? Or how about the Dred Scott decision that would require Northerners to hunt down fugitive slaves FOR the Southerners. States rights, huh?


Quote:
Originally Posted by lovesMountains View Post
The very idea that the average Confederate fought simply to preserve slavery is just downright wrong.

Think about it, why in the world would men who didn't even own slaves fight just for that reason?
The average Confederate, like the average soldier today, did what he was told. He was drafted or he left to make some money and feed himself. The whole "states rights" didn't really come around until the 1880s when the Confederates started rewriting their histories to secure their legacies.

But the Confederate soldiers certainly knew why the war was being fought.

And it's a convenient use of statistics to claim that the average Confederate didn't own slaves. Think about it, most 20-somethings don't have much property. They themselves might not have owned slaves, but their daddies sure did.

From a recent historians tally of the extent of slaveholding in the Confederate forces:

Lincoln Studies: Joseph T. Glatthaar, "General Lee's Army"

"If we combine the 10 percent of enlistees who lived with non-family members who owned slaves, with the 35.89 percent figure we arrived at earlier (volunteers who were slave owners or who lived with parents who owned slaves), we find that nearly half of all Confederate enlistees in 1861 either lived with slaveholders or were slave owners themselves."

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovesMountains View Post
The rank and file of the Southern armies was composed of farmers and laborers who volunteered to protect home and everything dear from Northern invaders, to keep their traditions and be left alone - plain and simple.
The poorest Southern whites, the farmers in the mountains, were as likely to be UNION supporters. They had little use for the slave power and knew very well who that was and why the war was being fought.

Most farmers were well-invested in the slave trade. And there were very few white laborers in the south outside of the port cities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovesMountains View Post
Trust me my friend, most of us are only trying to honor our heritage and ancestors when we fly the flag, that's all. I am truly sorry to anyone who is offended by that.
No problem trying to honor your "heritage" as long as you realize that a great deal of it is mythology. It's just not true.
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Old 06-06-2012, 07:37 PM
 
2,638 posts, read 6,051,724 times
Reputation: 3398
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovesMountains View Post
Oh come on. Initially even Lincoln didn't want to free the slaves.

States rights and self-determination where at the heart of why so many fought and died for the south.

The very idea that the average Confederate fought simply to preserve slavery is just downright wrong.

Think about it, why in the world would men who didn't even own slaves fight just for that reason?

The rank and file of the Southern armies was composed of farmers and laborers who volunteered to protect home and everything dear from Northern invaders, to keep their traditions and be left alone - plain and simple.

Trust me my friend, most of us are only trying to honor our heritage and ancestors when we fly the flag, that's all. I am truly sorry to anyone who is offended by that.
Loves, I'm talking about the reason the war was started. Sure, many fought who had no particular interest in slavery--they were merely answering the call. But the "states rights" issue you contend was the root of the war was about the right to own slaves. It was the central issue in the years leading up to the war, and it was the reason the southern states wanted to preserve states rights over those of the union. Again, read a history book!

And again, I don't question your right to fly a confederate flag. I just question your judgment, and why you feel it necessary to do something that obviously (and for good reasons) offends black people. Jeez, haven't they suffered enough?
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