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Virginia's state income tax is 2% less than NC for the highest earners and a whopping 4% less for the lower earners. Their gas taxes are almost $.20 less. Real estate taxes are just about even with NC as far as my experience goes. They do have a few toll roads in the urban areas of the state, but it's easy not to drive on them if you don't want to. Their unemployment percentage is 4% less than NC right now. They also have one of the larger state maintained highway systems in the country. I wish we could tax more like them...
A bunch of NoVa is all toll roads, far more then anything you see in North Carolina. That is how they do it. BTW good luck trying to get from DC to somewhere like Reston, or Chantilly not using toll roads. I did it and it took hours.
Last edited by Randomstudent; 11-14-2012 at 10:18 PM..
Exactly. The state also needs to take a hard look at the thousands of miles of roads NC DOT owns. I believe our DOT owns more miles of roads than any other state, but we only have the 9th largest budget in the US. If a small/unpopulated area needs a new road built (why would a small unpopulated area need a new road in the first place ) they should do it with their own county funds. Expecting a friendly handout from the NC DOT is simply unacceptable.
Just in the Charlotte area alone, here's one such example. I-85 in Rowan county is 8-10 lanes wide. I-77 from uptown Charlotte to Carowinds is 6 lanes wide. Charlotte has 750,000 people and is growing. Rowan county has 138,000 people and is shrinking. It is widely known that the I-85 widening project through Rowan county was a political favor to a high ranking official from that county. Rowan is not alone when it comes to roads built on politics rather than need in this state.
Here's what's even more shocking. Because of road projects like I-85 in Rowan county, Wake county residents (a fast growing county of nearly 1 million people) are now paying tolls on some parts of I-540 just to get it built. Residents of fast growing Union county has no freeway at all (the only county in the state with more than 200,000 people that has no freeway). When Union finally gets a freeway, it will have tolls on it (because the NC DOT is broke from rural political favors such as Rowan County).
Wait, it gets worse. Because the state chooses to build these rural-political-favor-roads, fast growing urban areas (of our state) road costs go up. To put it another way, land prices rise the fastest in areas that add people. Whenever a rural road to nowhere is built, an urban road gets delayed. The cost of building that rural road won't rise much if that project is delayed because land inflation in rural NC is not nearly as high as the land inflation in urban NC. If our government wants to be cost effective, they would build the urban roads first, and make the rural roads wait.
Back to the Charlotte example of I-77....
I-77 from uptown to Carowinds needed 10-12 lanes 10 years ago. The price tag for such a project 15 years ago would have been about $600 million. In 2012, that same project is now well over $1 billion. Due to the high cost of land, adding an elevated portion of road over the existing freeway is almost just as expensive as a more traditional widening. I don't have the link, but the Charlotte Observer did a detailed story on this situation awhile back. Wish I could find the link because it is worth a read.
SC example...
SC (believe it or not) actually planned I-77 better than NC. From Carowinds to Rock Hill, I-77 is 8-10 lanes for 14 miles. When SC originally did their widening of I-77, the plan was for 6-8 lanes. However, the SC DOT did a study (something NC DOT never seems to do) and they found that they would have to come back and widen a 6 laned I-77 in less than 10 years. So to save future money, SC DOT decided to widen the road based on what was needed 20 years down the road. Being that York county is now metro Charlotte's second most populated county (and SC's fastest growing county), those SC boys were smart. Rural roads in NC are certainly better than SC's rural roads. However, why do we need great rural roads? 20% of NC's population lives in only 2 NC counties. Over half of NC's population lives in only 3 different metros (Charlotte, Triad, Triangle).
Nothing against the poster from "Western NC", but that's kinda what I'm getting at. There are Buncombe county sized suburban counties of metro Charlotte with infrastructure that is 30-40 years behind Buncombe's. Due to the fact that Western NC is in the mountains, many new road projects up that way require some serious mountain blasting before the pavement goes down (think US 321 south of Blowing Rock). Why aren't those expensive road projects of NC seeing tolls? Most commuters in Western NC take back roads to work, so the toll roads there would be paid mostly by tourists.
I don't mean to offend our rural residents, but I'm sick and tired of seeing a sea of cars on I-77 in Lake Norman or I-485 in Ballantyne. These are 4 laned roads, the same number of lanes as I-795 between Goldsboro and Wilson. Sorry Eastern NC, but there are FAR greater road priorities in this state; 90% of them are in the Triad, Triangle, and Charlotte...
As for the OP's concern about our high gas tax. Don't waste your time hoping for it to go down anytime soon. As I've shown, NC DOT has alot of roads on their plate (many of which are simply not needed).
I tend to agree with that sentiment particularly about the triangle. Just recently people in Wake County got so frustrated with waiting for NC DOT to fund improvements on Highway 54 they went ahead and passed a local bond to do it themselves. It is crazy that with the issues we are having with 54 that they are sinking all sorts of money into I-74. Don't get me wrong I-74 is quite nice, but really Rockingham to Lumberton does not and never will have the kind of issues the Triangle does.
Haha, yeah. And note all the threads here griping about the Triangle expressway and possibly tolling 95. If you want roads and lower taxes there's only one other way to pay for them.
Pretty much. A big part of why I voted for the transit tax referendum is I fear that the Triangle is increasingly turning into the North Carolina version of NoVa and we need to do something, about our transportation system or we will be in deep trouble. We went from like 900,000 people in 1990 to like 1,800,000 in 2010.
I tend to agree with that sentiment particularly about the triangle. Just recently people in Wake County got so frustrated with waiting for NC DOT to fund improvements on Highway 54 they went ahead and passed a local bond to do it themselves. It is crazy that with the issues we are having with 54 that they are sinking all sorts of money into I-74. Don't get me wrong I-74 is quite nice, but really Rockingham to Lumberton does not and never will have the kind of issues the Triangle does.
In order to go to urban areas, interstates have to go through rural. I74 from Asheboro to Rockingham is change in the name with a rest area. It was Highway 220.
When it is done we will have interstate to Myrtle Beach.
In order to go to urban areas, interstates have to go through rural. I74 from Asheboro to Rockingham is change in the name with a rest area. It was Highway 220.
When it is done we will have interstate to Myrtle Beach.
There is already an interstate to Wilmington, I-40 that basically does the same thing in terms of connecting Winston Salem to Myrtle beach. I just don't see the point of connecting Winston Salem to Myrtle Beach via another interstate when I-40 from Raleigh to Durham has the worst rush hour delays on the entire 2,500+ mile length of I-40 and we claim not to have the resources to do all that much about it.
Obviously the allotment of highway funds is a contentious subject, and there are lots of factors to consider. It's not always just about where the perceived needs are, but another very important element is economic development of suppressed areas. Highway 64 to the OB is a perfect example. Yes, to many it may appear to be a "road to nowhere", but in reality it has helped fuel the tremendous growth of the OB as a tourist destination. In part because of the new highway, there are many more visitors there now, many of whom are from out of state and spending big bucks to help the local economy.
Also, while I-40 does connect Winston-Salem to Wilmington, it does nothing for the suppressed areas in the southern part of the state like Scotland, Robeson, and Columbus counties. The new I-73 & I-74 routes will take many tourists through these areas, where they'll no doubt spend lots of money on gas, food, and perhaps lodging as well. There are tons of people who use US 220 already--on any weekend during the warmer months it seems at least half the vehicles have plates from West Virginia, Ohio, Michigan, etc. These people would not consider using I-40 to Wilmington--it would be faster to take I-77 to Columbia if they didn't have the US 220 option.
And it's not all about tourism--interstate access is an important factor for businesses considering relocation to these areas. So following that line of thinking, one could argue that the urban areas of our state already have plenty of infrastructure to support commerce, so maybe they should get less highway funding, not more. Not saying that's always true, of course, but it's one of many factors that must be weighed.
Obviously the allotment of highway funds is a contentious subject, and there are lots of factors to consider. It's not always just about where the perceived needs are, but another very important element is economic development of suppressed areas. Highway 64 to the OB is a perfect example. Yes, to many it may appear to be a "road to nowhere", but in reality it has helped fuel the tremendous growth of the OB as a tourist destination. In part because of the new highway, there are many more visitors there now, many of whom are from out of state and spending big bucks to help the local economy.
Also, while I-40 does connect Winston-Salem to Wilmington, it does nothing for the suppressed areas in the southern part of the state like Scotland, Robeson, and Columbus counties. The new I-73 & I-74 routes will take many tourists through these areas, where they'll no doubt spend lots of money on gas, food, and perhaps lodging as well. There are tons of people who use US 220 already--on any weekend during the warmer months it seems at least half the vehicles have plates from West Virginia, Ohio, Michigan, etc. These people would not consider using I-40 to Wilmington--it would be faster to take I-77 to Columbia if they didn't have the US 220 option.
And it's not all about tourism--interstate access is an important factor for businesses considering relocation to these areas. So following that line of thinking, one could argue that the urban areas of our state already have plenty of infrastructure to support commerce, so maybe they should get less highway funding, not more. Not saying that's always true, of course, but it's one of many factors that must be weighed.
While I understand that argument and in an ideal world where there was plenty of funding it would make sense, I don't see why it is prioritized over the much needed improvements on or around the urban areas of I-40.
Greensboro is another good example. The state has known about "death valley" since the 1960s and it is still a problem.
Last edited by Randomstudent; 11-15-2012 at 01:06 PM..
Obviously the allotment of highway funds is a contentious subject, and there are lots of factors to consider. It's not always just about where the perceived needs are, but another very important element is economic development of suppressed areas. Highway 64 to the OB is a perfect example. Yes, to many it may appear to be a "road to nowhere", but in reality it has helped fuel the tremendous growth of the OB as a tourist destination. In part because of the new highway, there are many more visitors there now, many of whom are from out of state and spending big bucks to help the local economy.
Also, while I-40 does connect Winston-Salem to Wilmington, it does nothing for the suppressed areas in the southern part of the state like Scotland, Robeson, and Columbus counties. The new I-73 & I-74 routes will take many tourists through these areas, where they'll no doubt spend lots of money on gas, food, and perhaps lodging as well. There are tons of people who use US 220 already--on any weekend during the warmer months it seems at least half the vehicles have plates from West Virginia, Ohio, Michigan, etc. These people would not consider using I-40 to Wilmington--it would be faster to take I-77 to Columbia if they didn't have the US 220 option.
And it's not all about tourism--interstate access is an important factor for businesses considering relocation to these areas. So following that line of thinking, one could argue that the urban areas of our state already have plenty of infrastructure to support commerce, so maybe they should get less highway funding, not more. Not saying that's always true, of course, but it's one of many factors that must be weighed.
I can agree with this to an extent. However, Charlotte's (for example) most congested roads are 6-laned and 4-laned freeways. For the record, 6-lanes of freeway can be found in towns such as Lexington. Why in the world does Lexington have the same number of lanes as Charlotte's main freeway?
I can also understand why the Triangle folks are angry over I-40 near RTP. Still though, that stretch of I-40 has 8 lanes. Charlotte's biggest bottlenecks are 4-laned freeways (I-77 in Lake Norman and I-485 in Ballantyne). The 6-laned stretch of I-77 is bad as well.
I'll admit that much of the congestion problems come from bad planning on the part of the urban areas. Charlotte for example never should have allowed for Ballantyne and Lake Norman to become as big as they have become, given the limited infrastructure. Similarly, the Triangle should have focused their growth around a dense downtown office area rather than the suburban office park model. Bad planning aside, it is a FACT that NC builds roads based on politics rather than need. That needs to stop....NOW!!!
I can agree with this to an extent. However, Charlotte's (for example) most congested roads are 6-laned and 4-laned freeways. For the record, 6-lanes of freeway can be found in towns such as Lexington. Why in the world does Lexington have the same number of lanes as Charlotte's main freeway?
Heck Preddy Blvd in Greensboro aka "Death Valley" is only 6 lanes for 5 routes. The role of politics in road construction has been a huge issue.
^ Don't disagree; unfortunately politics plays a big role, but even if it didn't, "need" is difficult to define and compare...it's not always cut and dried. In Charlotte's case, most of the problems are due to its unprecedented growth which has outpaced even the most generous estimates from 20 years ago (that's about how long it takes for major highway projects to go from dream to completion). You say Charlotte "needs" more/wider highways, while someone in a remote mountain town "needs" a new road so they can get more tourist dollars or better access to medical facilities, or to encourage a company to build a facility there for 500 jobs. Hard to say which one needs it more--the fact is that there's never enough money to pay for it all, so you have to make some difficult choices.
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) they should do it with their own county funds. Expecting a friendly handout from the NC DOT is simply unacceptable.
