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Old 02-02-2013, 08:46 AM
 
910 posts, read 1,318,948 times
Reputation: 598

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Quote:
Originally Posted by drfranklin View Post
But is your assumption backed by data? In other words, are there any reliable studies detailing the dollar consumption (per year) of upper and lower classes and then comparing these tax revenues to a hypothetical increased sales tax rate (with the subsequent elimination of an income tax)? Of course, those in the upper income brackets with an elimination of their state income tax may lead to more in-state consumption.

Again, I've lived in states with and without a state income tax and my consumption has remained about the same (I'm fortunately in an upper income tax bracket).
Well it's sort of common sense, but here's BLS stats on the relationship between consumer spending and GDP. And here's an economic paper from the Fed on the effects of switching to a VAT-style consumption based tax. Most of the paper outlines the transitional effects of switching, but importantly they note the negative effect regressive taxation systems have on lower-income level households and their spending patterns.

Where this comes into play in NC is about 17.5% of the state lives in poverty, and 28% of workers earn poverty-level wages in 2011, up from 23.1% in 2002, indicating that lower wage households are on the increase. Which means a larger sector of households would have their spending behavior affected by the shift in taxation, and why people like Art Pope, who profit off this increase in lower-income households, are against the plan. People like you and I in upper income brackets wouldn't see our spending behavior affected as much since the proportion of our total income used on non-durable goods and basic services purchases (i.e. food and shelter) is smaller.

Another area where immediate price fluctuations dictate consumer behavior is gas prices. Note the sales increase in smaller cars and hybrid vehicles in the past few years and decreases in SUVs and trucks over the same period as gas prices have risen, to the point that manufacturers have been reorganizing around this as a medium-to-long-term market scenario, even after fuel prices stabilize. Which they won't, because they're driven entirely by commodities speculation at this point and are completely decoupled from normal laws of supply and demand.
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Old 02-03-2013, 08:52 PM
 
Location: The South
848 posts, read 1,120,054 times
Reputation: 1007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Semperparatus! View Post
12 pages of discussion on raising this tax to offset lowering that tax.... How about reducing the size and scope of the state and local governments and passing the savings on to the taxpayers?
What do you suggest cutting, including a dollar amount?
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Old 02-03-2013, 08:57 PM
 
Location: The South
848 posts, read 1,120,054 times
Reputation: 1007
Thanks for summarizing so well.
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Old 02-04-2013, 11:03 AM
 
235 posts, read 307,119 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanmyth View Post
What do you suggest cutting, including a dollar amount?
Why? Do you agree the state and local governments are too big and cost too much?
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Old 02-04-2013, 01:03 PM
 
13,900 posts, read 9,768,836 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drfranklin View Post
Completely agree.



How so?

I'm a SC resident and am appalled at the amount of money I paid last year to the SC state treasury (I moved here from TN - which, of course, has no state income tax).

Eliminating NC's state income tax would be a huge draw for me. I've nearly moved to NC on 2 separate occasions; but, when I crunched my budget numbers, SC is always cheaper.

Believe me - if NC eliminated its state income tax, I'd gladly pay a higher sales tax - the amount of tax I pay yearly on consumption is a fraction of what I pay in state income tax!
Taxing lower and middle income people more drives down consumption and would slow economic growth and activity.
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Old 02-04-2013, 01:29 PM
 
Location: South Beach and DT Raleigh
13,966 posts, read 24,156,607 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter_Sucks View Post
Taxing lower and middle income people more drives down consumption and would slow economic growth and activity.
amen!
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:26 PM
 
Location: Fort Bragg, N.C.
25 posts, read 30,372 times
Reputation: 21
I met a homeless man in Fayetteville, NC in the mid-90's. I spoke with him because we were standing in the same ATM line on pay day, the 1st of the month. He was an intelligent Vietnam veteran who chose not to pay property tax, nor work to avoid paying state income tax. He lived on the street and collected his federal deposit (retirement or medical disability --not sure) each month to survive. He even talked about the money he sends to his sister every month to help with his niece/nephew(s).

Alright, a little off topic, but that was my first thought on N.C. tax after reading this thread. Of course this is only a partial tax story. He also carried a deeper protest over the treatment of veterans and felt that he no longer owed a cost of living, especially tax. Interesting, inspiring, and conflicting all at once. He was determined though.

And there was no doubting this man's story; it was plainly obvious. I've seen him here and there, yet less and less, over the last 16+ years --content, healthy looking, and still backpacking (in what... at least his 70's?).

-T
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Old 02-08-2013, 05:10 AM
 
53 posts, read 92,379 times
Reputation: 39
From today's N&O...article on how the re-setting of the payroll tax back to what it was 2 years ago is hitting the lower income the most. This is how income taxes hurt more up front than sales taxes as people "choose" where and when they will pay their sales taxes. Note the point about upper income people not feeling the pinch because their dividends went up as companies paid out early to avoid the income tax increases...the poor don't get these loopholes advantages. Yes, theoretically when the lower income file their taxes at the end of the year they should get a refund of the payroll taxes, but tell that to them right now...enjoy the read.

Andrews and his wife no longer enjoy what they call date night, their once-a-month outing to the movies and a steak dinner in Augusta, Ga. And in Harlem, Eddie Phillips’ life insurance payment will have to wait a few more weeks.Like millions of other Americans, they are feeling the bite from the sharp increase in payroll taxes that took effect at the beginning of January. There are growing signs that the broader economy is suffering, too.
Chain-store sales have weakened over the course of the month. And two surveys released last week suggested that consumer confidence was eroding, especially among lower-income Americans.
While these data points are preliminary at street level, the pain from the expiration of a 2 percentage point break in Social Security taxes in 2011 and 2012 is plain to see.
“You got to stretch what you got,” said Phillips, 51, who earned $22,000 last year. “That little $20 or $30 affects you, especially if you’re just making enough money to stay above water.” “I’m playing catch-up each month,” he said.
Jack Andrews has it slightly better. He earns a bit more than $40,000 a year, but because his wife, Cindy, is disabled, he is the sole breadwinner. Something had to give now that he is earning about $800 less a year, or $66 a month, and it was the couple’s monthly night out.
The tax break, which was pushed by the White House to stimulate spending in 2011 and extended in 2012, was always supposed to be temporary. But with pressure building in Washington to reduce the deficit and politicians fighting bitterly over whether to raise taxes on the very rich, the question of how the increase in Social Security taxes would affect the poorest workers did not garner much debate on either side of the aisle.
The higher rate applies to all earned income up to $113,700. For a household earning $100,000 a year, the increase means an additional $2,000 a year in payroll deductions. Economists estimate the payroll tax increase will reduce disposable income by about $120 billion and shave half a percentage point from economic growth in the first quarter – a significant blow given that the economy is expected to expand only 1 to 2 percent in the first half of 2013.
“If you wanted to design a policy to squeeze the spending of lower- and middle-income households, raising the payroll tax is the way to do it,” said Ian Shepherdson, chief economist at Pantheon Macroeconomic Advisors.
Monthly data for chain-store sales in January will not be released until Friday, but the weekly data already available for last month showed a steady deterioration in shopping activity.
“There is something going on,” said Chris G. Christopher Jr., senior principal economist at IHS Global Insight. “The payroll tax seems to be cutting into things.”
That pattern was apparent in a Thomson Reuters/University of Michigan survey of consumer sentiment released last Friday, according to Richard T. Curtin, who directs surveys of consumers at the university.
When asked how their financial situation had changed in January, 32 percent of people with incomes below $75,000 said their pay had dropped, compared with 13 percent who said it had increased. By contrast, 38 percent of people earning more than $75,000 said their wages had gone up last month, and 23 percent said they had gone down.
“We rarely see such divergent trends,” Curtin said. “Mostly it was the payroll tax hurting the lower incomes, while higher-income folks had a boost from things like dividends.”
In fact, as companies paid out dividends to shareholders early to avoid the higher tax rate for 2013, personal dividend income increased at a seasonally adjusted monthly rate of 34.3 percent in December, compared with a 4.5 percent rise in November.
But that did little to help Jessica Price, who holds down two jobs in Orlando. Most weekends she works at a clothing store in a shopping center near the Universal Studios theme park, within sight of the roller coasters, and she spends weekdays collecting tolls on a local expressway.
Price, 20, whose annual income is $15,000 to $16,000, prefers shopping at Whole Foods, the upscale supermarket chain, which is healthier but more expensive. But since the payroll tax went up, she has been going more often to Publix and Wal-Mart.
“The food that has a lot of fat and food coloring is cheaper,” she said. “It’s a lot more expensive to eat healthier. But now I’m actually looking at the price tag on things rather than grabbing them.”
[LEFT]
Read more here: Restored payroll tax pinches those with smallest checks | Economy | NewsObserver.com
[/LEFT]
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Old 02-08-2013, 07:24 PM
 
53 posts, read 92,379 times
Reputation: 39
things that make you go hhmmm. I haven't read yet if the NC legislature is considering a lower rate on taxing food items...anyone go info??
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Old 02-09-2013, 08:45 AM
 
Location: The Triad
34,088 posts, read 82,953,336 times
Reputation: 43661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parr0thead98 View Post
From today's N&O... article on how the re-setting of the payroll tax back to what it was 2 years ago
is hitting the lower income the most.

This is how income taxes hurt more up front than sales taxes as people "choose"
where and when they will pay their sales taxes.
Er, not quite.
This is how poorly structured income taxes hurt more.

And don't for one second think that this reality wasn't a part of the political decision to
implement the expedient "re-set" rather than to do the actually difficult work of fixing things.

NC sales taxes are already too high.
NC income taxes revenue is low because too few are paid well enough.
Fix the actual problems.

And even with that... the definition of poverty being used
misses the far larger number of people who still aren't self sufficient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodricks
It's our official national lie — the number of Americans we consider poor.

Even as the U.S. Census Bureau prepares to report the highest level of poverty in 50 years, we are lying to ourselves about the number of Americans who can't make ends meet without government help or charity.

The federal government, using a formula developed nearly 50 years ago, defines poverty as pretax annual income of $23,050 for a family of four, and $11,170 for a single person. Imagine living by those numbers. Imagine living on $10,000 more per year, or even $5,000 more. American poverty might not constitute Third World poverty — our poor have microwave ovens and some own cars — but it's poor.

Last edited by MrRational; 02-09-2013 at 08:57 AM..
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