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Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbancharlotte
A few thoughts on this information:
First of all, Raleigh/Durham combined has nearly $66 billion compared to Charlotte's $69 billion. Yes, Charlotte's rate of growth is faster than a combined Raleigh/Durham, but the totals are similar.
Secondly, there is no way to determine what Charlotte's real TPI is. With Raleigh/Durham, all one has to do is combine the two. However, what does one do with the 700,000 people in Charlotte's CSA that's NEVER counted in these "so called" numbers reports? 700,000 people is a MSA the size of Greensboro (Greensboro's TPI is $25 billion). It's safe to say that Charlotte's TPI for the entire metro area is close to $100 billion (if not more than that).
Think of it like this. How many expensive homes are there in CSA counties along Lake Norman? Between Lincoln, Iredell, and Catawba counties, there's a bunch. Also, the corporate offices for Lowes are located in Mooresville. There are quite a few $100k salaries there that are not considered part of "metro Charlotte". The same can be said about the corporate HQ for Food Lion located in Salisbury (though Food Lion is CLEARLY part of metro Charlotte; think Food Lion's Speed Street). Also, the town of Kannapolis is located in both Rowan and Cabarrus county. Those that live on the Rowan county side (eventhough they may work and play near the Concord Mills area) are not counted.
The truth is that the US census screwed places like Charlotte big time when they took away true MSA counties such as Iredell, Rowan, and Lincoln (nearly 400,000 people) and replaced them with the likes of Anson (25,000 people). Charlotte's pre-2003 MSA would be 2.1 million. However, all we have to work with is a MSA of 1.7 and a CSA of 2.4. As a result, 700,000 working, eating, and playing folks are never counted. This is wrong wrong wrong. Look at the TPI numbers for peer cities of Charlotte like Cincinnati, Cleveland, Columbus, Kansas City, Pittsburgh etc and tell me there isn't something wrong with Charlotte's numbers. How can our GDP be in the top 25 yet the TPI is in the top 35? I know EXACTLY how. 41% of metro Charlotte isn't being counted.
More interesting findings:
I just checked the TPI for Hickory/Lenoir ($11 billion). Look at how close these two counties (in gold) are to Meck...
^^^These two are neither MSA nor CSA counties. Yet the bigger county of the two (Catawba) comes close to sharing a small northwest border with Meck. This map above shows the MSA counties in Red while showing the CSA counties in orange (with the one mistake of Chesterfield county SC, it is not a CSA county). Look at the distance of the MSA county of Anson vs the non-MSA/CSA county of Catawba. This is what I meant earlier when I said that the entire metro area is never counted in these metro lists. MSA Charlotte, plus CSA Charlotte, plus Hickory/Lenoir is probably $110 billion total TPI. Such an area covers 7,500 sq/mi of land. MSA St. Louis and MSA Kansas City covers 8,000 plus sq/miles of land. Just saying...
Urban, Charlotte's MSA is shown as light red while the CSA is dark red. It's difficult to discern. However, since I'm on the Cleveland County side of Kings Mountain, I did a double take.
Urban, Charlotte's MSA is shown as light red while the CSA is dark red. It's difficult to discern. However, since I'm on the Cleveland County side of Kings Mountain, I did a double take.
I'll try my best to explain the whole MSA/CSA thing.
MSA (Metropolitan Statistical Area)
Before 2003, this was the only way in which an area's urban core and suburbs were measured. The US census used both commuting factors as well as "social and economic" factors to determine which suburban counties should be included in an MSA and which should not. By these pre-2003 standards, Raleigh/Durham was one MSA combined (the way it should be IMO); while Charlotte had the following counties (Meck, Gaston, Cabarrus, Union, York, Iredell, Rowan, Lincoln). Keep in mind that I am going on memory here, so I could be off, but this seems accurate.
CSA (Combined Statistical Area)
In 2003, it was decided by the US census that the MSA designation was too vague. As a result, a new system called CSA came into play (keep in mind that not every city has a CSA; some still only have MSAs). The problem with CSAs is that its new. As a result, many publications only use MSAs when crunching numbers (MSA is a more familiar name).
What has this MSA/CSA stuff caused...
Lots of confusion and quite a bit of skewed bloated stats. Places like Raleigh all of a sudden became "the fastest growing metro in America". This only happened because the much slower growing Durham side of the metro was taken away from Raleigh in 2003. Places like Charlotte became "high crime metros" (yet violent crime here has dropped since the 1990s). That's because we lost neighbors such as Lincoln, Iredell, and Rowan.
Every single stat on an area from real estate to sports market and such are based on MSA numbers only. This means seperate stats for Raleigh/Durham (which isn't so bad because we can always combine the two). For Charlotte however, it means 700,000 people are never counted. You my friend live in Kings Mountain; therefore you are never counted as part of metro Charlotte (no matter how many times you shop in Gastonia). That's my issue with MSA/CSA. I don't like the fact that everyone in metro Charlotte isn't counted. This leads to us being under-represented both nationally and locally (think national and state politics).
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,688,469 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbancharlotte
I'll try my best to explain the whole MSA/CSA thing.
MSA (Metropolitan Statistical Area)
Before 2003, this was the only way in which an area's urban core and suburbs were measured. The US census used both commuting factors as well as "social and economic" factors to determine which suburban counties should be included in an MSA and which should not. By these pre-2003 standards, Raleigh/Durham was one MSA combined (the way it should be IMO); while Charlotte had the following counties (Meck, Gaston, Cabarrus, Union, York, Iredell, Rowan, Lincoln). Keep in mind that I am going on memory here, so I could be off, but this seems accurate.
CSA (Combined Statistical Area)
In 2003, it was decided by the US census that the MSA designation was too vague. As a result, a new system called CSA came into play (keep in mind that not every city has a CSA; some still only have MSAs). The problem with CSAs is that its new. As a result, many publications only use MSAs when crunching numbers (MSA is a more familiar name).
What has this MSA/CSA stuff caused...
Lots of confusion and quite a bit of skewed bloated stats. Places like Raleigh all of a sudden became "the fastest growing metro in America". This only happened because the much slower growing Durham side of the metro was taken away from Raleigh in 2003. Places like Charlotte became "high crime metros" (yet violent crime here has dropped since the 1990s). That's because we lost neighbors such as Lincoln, Iredell, and Rowan.
Every single stat on an area from real estate to sports market and such are based on MSA numbers only. This means seperate stats for Raleigh/Durham (which isn't so bad because we can always combine the two). For Charlotte however, it means 700,000 people are never counted. You my friend live in Kings Mountain; therefore you are never counted as part of metro Charlotte (no matter how many times you shop in Gastonia). That's my issue with MSA/CSA. I don't like the fact that everyone in metro Charlotte isn't counted. This leads to us being under-represented both nationally and locally (think national and state politics).
I agree that it really messes things up for Charlotte.
Heck, even the TV stations ignore us. That's a city w/population of 11K+ & zip code (only the City & twp.) of 28K+ Really? We don't exist? To make matters worse, only eastern Cleveland County is commutable to Charlotte (That's Kings Mountain & Grover.) By the latest standards, Cleveland will either be a CSA to Charlotte or Greenville, SC, for the next 10 years. It's hard to say which, because people in the southern parts of the county are commuting to Spartanburg for jobs because of the textile collapse in Gastonia.
In another 10 years, Cleveland will be in the Charlotte MSA, but not this time around.
I agree that it really messes things up for Charlotte.
Heck, even the TV stations ignore us. That's a city w/population of 11K+ & zip code (only the City & twp.) of 28K+ Really? We don't exist? To make matters worse, only eastern Cleveland County is commutable to Charlotte (That's Kings Mountain & Grover.) By the latest standards, Cleveland will either be a CSA to Charlotte or Greenville, SC, for the next 10 years. It's hard to say which, because people in the southern parts of the county are commuting to Spartanburg for jobs because of the textile collapse in Gastonia.
In another 10 years, Cleveland will be in the Charlotte MSA, but not this time around.
It isn't just you. West Port, Denver, Mooresville, Kings Mountain, 1/3 of Kannapolis, China Grove, Rockwell, Indian Land and quite a few others are not considered part of our metro by the US census. Like I said, nearly 700,000 people total (when you add them all up) are not counted. 700,000 is almost the entire population of Charlotte that's not being counted at all. No where can one even find the stats for these areas and add them to Charlotte (Raleigh can atleast add Durham).
To be totally fair urbancharlotte, the same counties used to deliver Charlotte as a top 25 GDP are the same that are used to deliver the TPI. Now, if your hypothesizing that some of the people/companies that contribute to the GDP live in counties not in the MSA, then I see your point. Although I have to admit it, I was thinking the same thing when I saw the numbers. How can Charlotte have a top 25 GDP, #33 MSA population, only be #35 in TPI? It boggles my mind too.
To be totally fair urbancharlotte, the same counties used to deliver Charlotte as a top 25 GDP are the same that are used to deliver the TPI. Now, if your hypothesizing that some of the people/companies that contribute to the GDP live in counties not in the MSA, then I see your point.
That is exactly what I am saying. Also, remember that GDP is the market value of all goods and services performed. Several (and I mean SEVERAL) companies located within the MSA perform services and provide goods for CSA counties. In other words, our small MSA is shown not to be so small when we look at GDP; TPI doesn't work the same way.
Think of it like this. If the 700,000 people in those CSA counties were reduced down to only 100,000 people, Charlotte's GDP would go down while Charlotte's TPI would not change much.
GDP-company's goods and services performed
TPI-income of all citizens
Notice that Charlotte's CSA population is almost the exact same rank as Charlotte's GDP ranking. This is because the GDP isn't so easily "fooled".
It isn't just you. West Port, Denver, Mooresville, Kings Mountain, 1/3 of Kannapolis, China Grove, Rockwell, Indian Land and quite a few others are not considered part of our metro by the US census. Like I said, nearly 700,000 people total (when you add them all up) are not counted. 700,000 is almost the entire population of Charlotte that's not being counted at all. No where can one even find the stats for these areas and add them to Charlotte (Raleigh can atleast add Durham).
Aren't they included in Charlotte's CSA?
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