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Being concerned doesn't make a person narrow-minded. Refusing to see that denying a civil right to consenting adults solely based on their sexual orientation IS narrow-minded.
We aren't opening some scary Pandora's box here. Nobody's talking about marrying your dog (cannot consent to a contract) or being allowed to marry children (again, cannot consent to contract and it's illegal to have sex with them anyway).
No. This is about consenting ADULTS.
And we should not tell consenting ADULTS who happen to be homosexual that they do not have the right to be recognized as lifelong partners BY LAW and given all the rights and privileges associated with that status.
I understand this is about consenting adults, but what about polygamy? The polygamists are starting their campaign using the same playbook as the gay rights activists. Would you support polygamy in NC with the same fervor? What special rights are granted with marriage anyway? (Tax benefits are not rights).
Agreed. I do not know of any places of business in NC that are being forced to do any of the things that netbrad is talking about.
Yet. The fact that activists are shopping around for controversy in NC means it will happen soon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by meh_whatever
And it is OT, but I don't really know of any places elsewhere that are being required to do such things. I think that any requirements are merely to uphold EXISTING laws and have zero to do with sexual orientation or any other variety of ills that are ascribed to the court rulings on such matters.
Read what happened in Oregon and Arizona, and the legal issues with the ACA.
I understand this is about consenting adults, but what about polygamy? The polygamists are starting their campaign using the same playbook as the gay rights activists. Would you support polygamy in NC with the same fervor? What special rights are granted with marriage anyway? (Tax benefits are not rights).
Well, tax benefits are something we offer to married couples of the same sex and we refuse to offer to couples who are of the same sex because here in NC, we don't allow gay marriage. Is that fair to gay people?
If we are being unfair to gay people by denying them certain financial breaks and/or ease of transfer of property (with wills and so forth), survivor benefits, rights in the event that a partner becomes critically ill to make life decisions, etc... is that not treating them unequally and therefore violating their civil right to be treated as an equal citizen?
And, yes. I don't care if people get married to more than one person, as long as all the persons in that particular marriage are informed and give their consent.
It's none of my business. I suppose it works for some. And it has the special benefit of having been a longstanding HISTORICAL tradition for MANY years.
(I know you are into the "it's how they've always done it" sort of thing, so that's worth mentioning)
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Yet. The fact that activists are shopping around for controversy in NC means it will happen soon.
Read what happened in Oregon and Arizona, and the legal issues with the ACA.
Do you really think that people "look" for controversy? I'd say there's enough of it just waiting around without anyone having to look to find it.
Re: OT commentary, all I'm saying is that I know full well that people who discriminate may wind up in a bind and out of business. But, hey... freedom of choice.
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Well, tax benefits are something we offer to married couples of the same sex and we refuse to offer to couples who are of the same sex because here in NC, we don't allow gay marriage. Is that fair to gay people?
A benefit is not a right. Not all married heterosexuals can receive such benefits either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by meh_whatever
If we are being unfair to gay people by denying them certain financial breaks and/or ease of transfer of property (with wills and so forth), survivor benefits, rights in the event that a partner becomes critically ill to make life decisions, etc... is that not treating them unequally and therefore violating their civil right to be treated as an equal citizen?
All of which can be handled with wills, trusts and powers of attorney just like with straight couples so no, it is not treating them unequally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by meh_whatever
And, yes. I don't care if people get married to more than one person, as long as all the persons in that particular marriage are informed and give their consent.
It's none of my business. I suppose it works for some. And it has the special benefit of having been a longstanding HISTORICAL tradition for MANY years.
(I know you are into the "it's how they've always done it" sort of thing, so that's worth mentioning)
Polygamist relationships were still between a man and woman/women (historically speaking).
Re: OT commentary, all I'm saying is that I know full well that people who discriminate may wind up in a bind and out of business. But, hey... freedom of choice.
And that is how it should be, market-based not government-based.
What special rights are granted with marriage anyway? (Tax benefits are not rights).
I'm not sure there's a useful distinction in all cases, but as of 2003, the General Accounting Office listed 1138 statutory provisions in which marital status is a factor in determining benefits, rights, and privileges. Here's a short list:
Right to benefits while married:
Employment assistance and transitional services for spouses of members being separated from military service; continued commissary privileges
Per diem payment to spouse for federal civil service employees when relocating
Indian Health Service care for spouses of Native Americans (in some circumstances)
Sponsor husband/wife for immigration benefits
Larger benefits under some programs if married, including:
Veteran's disability
Supplemental Security Income
Disability payments for federal employees
Medicaid
Property tax exemption for homes of totally disabled veterans
Income tax deductions, credits, rates exemption, and estimates
Wages of an employee working for one's spouse are exempt from federal unemployment tax[3]
Joint and family-related rights:
Joint filing of bankruptcy permitted
Joint parenting rights, such as access to children's school records
Family visitation rights for the spouse and non-biological children, such as to visit a spouse in a hospital or prison
Next-of-kin status for emergency medical decisions or filing wrongful death claims
Custodial rights to children, shared property, child support, and alimony after divorce
Domestic violence intervention
Access to "family only" services, such as reduced rate memberships to clubs & organizations or residency in certain neighborhoods
Preferential hiring for spouses of veterans in government jobs
Tax-free transfer of property between spouses (including on death) and exemption from "due-on-sale" clauses.
Special consideration to spouses of citizens and resident aliens
Threats against spouses of various federal employees is a federal crime
Right to continue living on land purchased from spouse by National Park Service when easement granted to spouse
Court notice of probate proceedings
Domestic violence protection orders
Existing homestead lease continuation of rights
Regulation of condominium sales to owner-occupants exemption
Funeral and bereavement leave
Joint adoption and foster care
Joint tax filing
Insurance licenses, coverage, eligibility, and benefits organization of mutual benefits society
Legal status with stepchildren
Making spousal medical decisions
Spousal non-resident tuition deferential waiver
Permission to make funeral arrangements for a deceased spouse, including burial or cremation
Right of survivorship of custodial trust
Right to change surname upon marriage
Right to enter into prenuptial agreement
Right to inheritance of property
Spousal privilege in court cases (the marital confidences privilege and the spousal testimonial privilege)
For those divorced or widowed, the right to many of ex- or late spouse's benefits, including:
Social Security pension
Veteran's pensions, indemnity compensation for service-connected deaths, medical care, and nursing home care, right to burial in veterans' cemeteries, educational assistance, and housing survivor benefits for federal employees
Survivor benefits for spouses of longshoremen, harbor workers, railroad workers
Additional benefits to spouses of coal miners who die of black lung disease
$100,000 to spouse of any public safety officer killed in the line of duty
Continuation of employer-sponsored health benefits
Renewal and termination rights to spouse's copyrights on death of spouse
Continued water rights of spouse in some circumstances
Payment of wages and workers compensation benefits after worker death
Making, revoking, and objecting to post-mortem anatomical gifts
I'm not sure there's a useful distinction in all cases, but as of 2003, the General Accounting Office listed 1138 statutory provisions in which marital status is a factor in determining benefits, rights, and privileges. Here's a short list:
Right to benefits while married:
Employment assistance and transitional services for spouses of members being separated from military service; continued commissary privileges
Per diem payment to spouse for federal civil service employees when relocating
Indian Health Service care for spouses of Native Americans (in some circumstances)
Sponsor husband/wife for immigration benefits
Larger benefits under some programs if married, including:
Veteran's disability
Supplemental Security Income
Disability payments for federal employees
Medicaid
Property tax exemption for homes of totally disabled veterans
Income tax deductions, credits, rates exemption, and estimates
Wages of an employee working for one's spouse are exempt from federal unemployment tax[3]
Joint and family-related rights:
Joint filing of bankruptcy permitted
Joint parenting rights, such as access to children's school records
Family visitation rights for the spouse and non-biological children, such as to visit a spouse in a hospital or prison
Next-of-kin status for emergency medical decisions or filing wrongful death claims
Custodial rights to children, shared property, child support, and alimony after divorce
Domestic violence intervention
Access to "family only" services, such as reduced rate memberships to clubs & organizations or residency in certain neighborhoods
Preferential hiring for spouses of veterans in government jobs
Tax-free transfer of property between spouses (including on death) and exemption from "due-on-sale" clauses.
Special consideration to spouses of citizens and resident aliens
Threats against spouses of various federal employees is a federal crime
Right to continue living on land purchased from spouse by National Park Service when easement granted to spouse
Court notice of probate proceedings
Domestic violence protection orders
Existing homestead lease continuation of rights
Regulation of condominium sales to owner-occupants exemption
Funeral and bereavement leave
Joint adoption and foster care
Joint tax filing
Insurance licenses, coverage, eligibility, and benefits organization of mutual benefits society
Legal status with stepchildren
Making spousal medical decisions
Spousal non-resident tuition deferential waiver
Permission to make funeral arrangements for a deceased spouse, including burial or cremation
Right of survivorship of custodial trust
Right to change surname upon marriage
Right to enter into prenuptial agreement
Right to inheritance of property
Spousal privilege in court cases (the marital confidences privilege and the spousal testimonial privilege)
For those divorced or widowed, the right to many of ex- or late spouse's benefits, including:
Social Security pension
Veteran's pensions, indemnity compensation for service-connected deaths, medical care, and nursing home care, right to burial in veterans' cemeteries, educational assistance, and housing survivor benefits for federal employees
Survivor benefits for spouses of longshoremen, harbor workers, railroad workers
Additional benefits to spouses of coal miners who die of black lung disease
$100,000 to spouse of any public safety officer killed in the line of duty
Continuation of employer-sponsored health benefits
Renewal and termination rights to spouse's copyrights on death of spouse
Continued water rights of spouse in some circumstances
Payment of wages and workers compensation benefits after worker death
Making, revoking, and objecting to post-mortem anatomical gifts
You want to deny people the ability to have a state-recognized union.
I am reminded of Sarah Palin.
Lipstick on pig. Still a pig.
Not at all, just don't call it marriage.
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