Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > North Carolina
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-26-2014, 05:56 AM
 
2,668 posts, read 7,128,512 times
Reputation: 3570

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by WaldoKitty View Post
They will protect their brand by being transparent, dealing with those who allowed this to happen, and put forth a well documented plan to explain how it won't happen again. It's simple stuff. No need to hire multi-million dollar publicity firms.

Apparently the fact that this is exactly what UNC has done escapes you. Yet the media and others continue to talk about the "athletic" scandal (it wasn't), "fake" classes (they weren't), and coaches who were in on the scandal (they weren't). Hence the need for a PR firm.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-26-2014, 03:17 PM
 
3,774 posts, read 8,152,764 times
Reputation: 4419
Quote:
Originally Posted by arbyunc View Post
Apparently the fact that this is exactly what UNC has done escapes you. Yet the media and others continue to talk about the "athletic" scandal (it wasn't), "fake" classes (they weren't), and coaches who were in on the scandal (they weren't). Hence the need for a PR firm.
Saying it doesn't make it true.

Even if you pay millions for others to say it for you.

Maybe at unc a "class" that never meets and has a grade assigned by faculty depending on what a particular ATHLETE needs to stay eligible isn't "fake" or "related to athletics"... But to the rest of the world that's EXACTLY what it means. Fake classes that exist for the benefit of athletes. Who are steered by coaches and advisors.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-27-2014, 10:01 PM
 
Location: Research Triangle Area, NC
6,323 posts, read 5,412,200 times
Reputation: 9936
This is great. Came in handy today (for neighbors, not relatives)

Holiday Tips: How To Discuss The Wainstein Report With Your Wolfpack Relatives
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2014, 06:08 AM
 
2,668 posts, read 7,128,512 times
Reputation: 3570
Quote:
Originally Posted by Native_Son View Post
Saying it doesn't make it true.

Even if you pay millions for others to say it for you.

Maybe at unc a "class" that never meets and has a grade assigned by faculty depending on what a particular ATHLETE needs to stay eligible isn't "fake" or "related to athletics"... But to the rest of the world that's EXACTLY what it means. Fake classes that exist for the benefit of athletes. Who are steered by coaches and advisors.

This post proves the point. You have earnestly absorbed the inaccurate portrayal of this scandal that's rampant in the media and among those in the rest of the world who haven't taken the time to understand. The classes in question were independent studies, a common presentation method at most large universities, and a paper was required from all students. They weren't "fake", they were "improperly graded". Fake would imply that the classes didn't exist at all, and they certainly did. The key here is that improperly graded classes exist at most schools with athletic programs. Here's an example from your own school: Jordan Vandenberg essay. Do you think Vandenberg's essay is college-level? Of course, we don't know what grade he received on this. But wouldn't it be interesting to find out? Do you think NCSU could hold up to that kind of scrutiny? I'm quite sure we'd find many cases of lenient grading for marginal athletes. This is not to bash NC State. It's merely to point out (once again), that this is not a problem that's unique to UNC.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2014, 09:05 AM
 
3,774 posts, read 8,152,764 times
Reputation: 4419
Quote:
Originally Posted by arbyunc View Post
This post proves the point. You have earnestly absorbed the inaccurate portrayal of this scandal that's rampant in the media and among those in the rest of the world who haven't taken the time to understand. The classes in question were independent studies, a common presentation method at most large universities, and a paper was required from all students. They weren't "fake", they were "improperly graded".

Good grief, do you realize how silly that sounds? [Clinton]It depends on what the definition of the word "is" is[/Clinton]

I was only mildly interested in this topic when it "broke". But after reading a lot of the actual Wainstein Report, including the attachments and emails, and seeing exactly how this "academic" scandal conveniently managed to be *just* broad enough to keep 20 years of ATHLETES academically eligible. Well let's just say it is more than disgusting.

And if it DOES happen at other schools it shouldn't. And a good way to prevent it from happening at other schools is to punish offenders with the full weight of the rule. It's a tried and true deterrent.

I'm curious, you two (in particular) seem to spend a lot of time researching NC State (y'all should start a thread)... have either of you read the Wainstein report?

When you get a chance, take a crack.

Someone has taken the time to graph occurrences of athletes in these bogus courses, and when you see the influence of Walden and Williams on the numbers it's obvious it has been an orchestrated scam.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2014, 02:12 PM
 
2,668 posts, read 7,128,512 times
Reputation: 3570
Quote:
Originally Posted by Native_Son View Post
Good grief, do you realize how silly that sounds?...

I'm curious... have either of you read the Wainstein report?

Doesn't sound as silly as you squawking about "fake" classes. As I said, they were not "fake"...the students did have to turn in a paper. It's an important distinction, because if they were indeed fake the students would have known the classes were bogus. As it is, the students were doing the work the professor assigned to them, and they would have no reason to know that the papers were being graded improperly.

And yes, I've read the report a number of times--I wonder if you have. The investigation found no evidence that anyone in the athletics department knew about the improper grading. They simply thought the classes were "easy", and easy classes can be found at virtually all universities. The sole exception to this is perhaps Walden (a basketball academic counselor), who knew that Crowder was grading at least some of the papers. Even here, it's questionable whether Walden knew this was improper (and the report presents no evidence that he did).

This all points to what the report supports--this was an academic scandal perpetrated by people on the academic side.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-29-2014, 09:46 AM
 
6,321 posts, read 10,262,290 times
Reputation: 3835
Quote:
Originally Posted by Native_Son View Post
Someone has taken the time to graph occurrences of athletes in these bogus courses, and when you see the influence of Walden and Williams on the numbers it's obvious it has been an orchestrated scam.
Someone = an NC State fan

North Carolina State Wolfpack Football, Basketball, and Recruiting Front Page

You've done a good job of not specifically involving NC State in the discussion but someone taking all that time to create all those graphs pretty much proves arby's point about how bad NC State people have it out for UNC.

But about the graphs and that post, I do agree with the author that it basically shows that the scandal "started" with the basketball team. But that still doesn't mean the athletic department actually had anything to do with it (of course, maybe they did).

Looking at the athlete graph vs. the non-athlete graph, when the enrollments really increased it seemed to do so at the same rate for both athletes and non-athletes. IMO, it seems like the word about the courses just got out, so I don't see how you can blame Williams for example by looking at this. At best you can use the "he should have known" argument as the courses started becoming more common. Although there could maybe be some evidence against Butch Davis as when he started there were spikes in the football enrollment and non-athlete enrollment died down.





But as a side note, I lost most of my respect for the post in that link after reading this line about the women's soccer team: "As others have noticed the record of wsoccer is telling pre and post 2009. In the 22 years before, UNC has won the ACC championship 20 times, but none in the 4 years since. In the same 22 years before 2009, they won the NCAA championship 15 times, but only once in the 4 years since." Only 1 championship in 4 years? Oh, the horror.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-29-2014, 04:20 PM
 
3,774 posts, read 8,152,764 times
Reputation: 4419
Quote:
Originally Posted by arbyunc View Post
The sole exception to this is perhaps Walden (a basketball academic counselor), who knew that Crowder was grading at least some of the papers. Even here, it's questionable whether Walden knew this was improper

The faintest whiff of plausible deniability, though it's plainly obvious from other emails that *everyone* in the unc ring was very intelligently playing the game (e.g., emails about employing Spurrier's APR-pumping scheme).

the folks at unc are a lot of things... But they're not stupid. Not the faculty and coaches anyway (and 99% of the students, for that matter). You know good and well that Walden and Williams knew. Whether or not the NCAA can/will prove it is another matter... but please, cut the charade. unc gamed the system to keep their athletes eligible. And won handfuls of championships with the system...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-01-2014, 07:02 AM
 
Location: South Beach and DT Raleigh
13,966 posts, read 24,031,540 times
Reputation: 14760
The Chapel Hill echo chamber is in full operation.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-01-2014, 10:23 AM
 
2,668 posts, read 7,128,512 times
Reputation: 3570
Quote:
Originally Posted by Native_Son View Post
You know good and well that Walden and Williams knew.

You'll believe what you want, of course, but the results of multiple investigations say otherwise.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:




Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > North Carolina

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top