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Of course that doesn't make slavery "okay" and as a native South Carolinian and descendant of African slaves, I'm not in favor of keeping the Confederate battle flag on state grounds whatsoever. But the implications that the North was somehow morally superior to the South in seeking to abolish slavery is somewhat amusing to me.
Thank you for that. I wish people would take your comments to heart.
Yes, the Mayor of New Orleans, twit that he is, wants to remove General Lee's statue from Lee Circle.
Gen Lee was a key player in the US winning the Mexican/American War.
Gen Lee was a key player in starting the healing process after the civil war
West Point still teaches Gen Lee's battle plans.
He did not want the war, but once SC fired that first shot, he stayed on the side of the Confederacy because he didn't want to take up arms against his fellow Virginians.
So now because of his stint in the confederacy we should forget some of the good he did and take down his statue.
People have gone totally bat ***** crazy over this.
It's nuts, stop already people
I don't see why they'd take down a statue of Lee. They must not have paid attention in history class.
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Of course that doesn't make slavery "okay" and as a native South Carolinian and descendant of African slaves, I'm not in favor of keeping the Confederate battle flag on state grounds whatsoever. But the implications that the North was somehow morally superior to the South in seeking to abolish slavery is somewhat amusing to me.
I don't think the North was at all morally superior. I do think, whether by accident or intention, that they were ultimately doing the right thing in upholding the abolishment of slavery.
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If the Northern states currently flew Confederate battle flags, I'd call them out on it.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Here's the real thing. Flags are merely symbols. Its whats in peoples minds and hearts that matters. Taking down a flag creates no real change. The flag is just an easy target to avoid doing anything constructive.
I don't think the North was at all morally superior. I do think, whether by accident or intention, that they were ultimately doing the right thing in upholding the abolishment of slavery.
Thats nonsensical. If one group did the "right thing", then by implication, the opposing group did the "wrong thing". Thus, you're assigning a morally superior position to one group.
Here's the real thing. Flags are merely symbols. Its whats in peoples minds and hearts that matters. Taking down a flag creates no real change. The flag is just an easy target to avoid doing anything constructive.
It is a symbol and often associated with people/groups/organizations spewing the venom of hate and superiority, not to mention heinous crimes committed post-Civil War to date . As a matter of fact, the confederate flag installed on the SC capital building was a vehement response to the passing of the Civil Rights Bill to at minimum show discontent and unwillingness to conform with the notion of being forced to integrate.
Displaying the flag is a subtle act in the large scheme of things but intended to provide a powerful subliminal message to those subjected to the torment and terror acts of supremacy groups, and give the proverbial "middle finger" to the US government. Sort of trying to win the war after the war, even if through policies and laws to demean and degrade a group of people (Whites Only, etc).
I am an African American and at the sight of the flag an instant and unconscious (and sometimes conscience) negative reaction immediately overcomes me, even when trying to dismiss and ignore that emotion. I don't think some White People actually understand or can imagine how TOLERANT Black People have been regarding the displaying of the confederate flag, especially Black Southerners. The hidden rage coupled with the ability to show restraint from slapping the sh*t of the person in a bar with it on, or ripping it to pieces and burning it up is an extremely difficult disposition to take.....words cannot describe or do justice to those emotions. However, reacting in that manner is unlawful and dispense any notion of freedom of speech and put me on even keel with that mindset. And I am first and foremost a patriot and true red, white and blue American but forced in some respects to be identified as an African American due to litany of historical reasons.
So, calling it an "easy" target is way off base. What is happening now should've happened many decades/years ago without an event of this magnitude to serve as the catalyst to do the right thing. You can't start to mend, heal or deal with race relations without truly LISTENING to what offends one of those parties, especially the minority party which has little to NO power to drive certain changes. Basically, any so-called "constructive" race relations building is based on the majority party terms or what seems sensible to them which is condescending and the highest form of insult.
Taking the flag down is a big step in the right direction because it shows goodwill, recognition and maybe some identification with what is bothering me (i.e., listening to the minority and those without the power to invoke change)....even at the expense of your convictions and what might seem a frivolous proposition to you with respect to race relationships.
It's no panacea but a damn good start and shows that you are FINALLY listening to me.
Last edited by Big Aristotle; 06-26-2015 at 08:32 AM..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77
Of course that doesn't make slavery "okay" and as a native South Carolinian and descendant of African slaves, I'm not in favor of keeping the Confederate battle flag on state grounds whatsoever. But the implications that the North was somehow morally superior to the South in seeking to abolish slavery is somewhat amusing to me.
I'm not sure how many Southern states have apologized for slavery. NJ issued an apology, as the only "free" state that still had slaves during the Civil War. There weren't many, but they were there.
I'll take issue with several points you make. I will continue to disagree that removing the flag is anything but the easy response. The real issue is the availability of guns in this country...but rather than do something about that we go for the low hanging fruit and pretend we've accomplished something. Second, claiming african-americans have "no power" to drive change is absurd. As is acting as if no change has occurred over the past 50 years.
Lastly, I'm assuming you think I oppose the removal of the flag, which is not the case. I'm simply pointing out that it will have virtually no demonstrable impact on the issues that caused the Charleston shootings. In fact, I suggest it has a very real chance of simply inflaming similarly minded nutjobs to commit more acts of violence.
It is a symbol and often associated with people/groups/organizations spewing the venom of hate and superiority, not to mention heinous crimes committed post-Civil War to date . As a matter of fact, the confederate flag installed on the SC capital building was a vehement response to the passing of the Civil Rights Bill to at minimum show discontent and unwillingness to conform with the notion of being forced to integrate.
Displaying the flag is a subtle act in the large scheme of things but intended to provide a powerful subliminal message to those subjected to the torment and terror acts of supremacy groups, and give the proverbial "middle finger" to the US government. Sort of trying to win the war after the war, even if through policies and laws to demean and degrade a group of people (Whites Only, etc).
I am an African American and at the sight of the flag an instant and unconscious (and sometimes conscience) negative reaction immediately overcomes me, even when trying to dismiss and ignore that emotion. I don't think some White People actually understand or can imagine how TOLERANT Black People have been regarding the displaying of the confederate flag, especially Black Southerners. The hidden rage coupled with the ability to show restraint from slapping the sh*t of the person in a bar with it on, or ripping it to pieces and burning it up is an extremely difficult disposition to take.....words cannot describe or do justice to those emotions. However, reacting in that manner is unlawful and dispense any notion of freedom of speech and put me on even keel with that mindset. And I am first and foremost a patriot and true red, white and blue American but forced in some respects to be identified as an African American due to litany of historical reasons.
So, calling it an "easy" target is way off base. What is happening now should've happened many decades/years ago without an event of this magnitude to serve as the catalyst to do the right thing. You can't start to mend, heal or deal with race relations without truly LISTENING to what offends one of those parties, especially the minority party which has little to NO power to drive certain changes. Basically, any so-called "constructive" race relations building is based on the majority party terms or what seems sensible to them which is condescending and the highest form of insult.
Taking the flag down is a big step in the right direction because it shows goodwill, recognition and maybe some identification with what is bothering me (i.e., listening to the minority and those without the power to invoke change)....even at the expense of your convictions and what might seem a frivolous proposition to you with respect to race relationships.
It's no panacea but a damn good start and shows that you are FINALLY listening to me.
Something that surprised me was a CNN poll that found only 63% of black people find the flag offensive...I would have thought it would be much higher.
I'm a history fanatic and think that the flag has a place in historical settings like museums or battlefield sites, but it should never have been flown over any government building. It's a historical relic and should be viewed as such and should not represent any present-day city/county/state/federal government.
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