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Old 05-07-2016, 09:28 AM
 
1,351 posts, read 742,128 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlotte485 View Post
It's kind of odd. You just got defeated with marriage equality and the lessons weren't learned. If you're going to have an intelligent legal reasoning, you're going to have to use logic. Not ignorant populism "if gays can get married, I'm marrying a tree frog." Those ignorant arguments will not win in any intellectual conversation just as your impossibility to logically differentiate the cause/effect of doing business in Saudi Arabia vs. NC hold zero water.
So please explain, logically, how discrimination laws can ever be legally upheld if anyone can claim to be a protected class? Under this interpretation of the law, I can claim to be a woman with no more foundation for it than what my fluid identity is on a given day. If this becomes the legal precedent, then why won't I also be able to claim that I identify as black or handicap and sue for discrimination if I'm not accommodated in the same way?
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Old 05-07-2016, 09:33 AM
 
Location: Washington DC
3,749 posts, read 3,267,604 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vulfpeck View Post
So please explain, logically, how discrimination laws can ever be legally upheld if anyone can claim to be a protected class? Under this interpretation of the law, I can claim to be a women with no more foundation for it than what my fluid identity is on a given day. If this becomes the legal precedent, then why won't I also be able to claim that I identify as black or handicap and sue for discrimination if I'm not accommodated in the same way?


You can go to court or claim to the police department that you're a big purple dinosaur. You'll be unsuccessful, but I implore you.

Courts go based on facts and logical reasoning. And courts do accept that people identify of a certain gender and it's backed up by imperical evidence. If you or I went to court saying "well I identified as a woman" they will determine that to be false and we will be guilty of whatever crime.
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Old 05-07-2016, 09:41 AM
 
1,351 posts, read 742,128 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlotte485 View Post
You can go to court or claim to the police department that you're a big purple dinosaur. You'll be unsuccessful, but I implore you.

Courts go based on facts and logical reasoning. And courts do accept that people identify of a certain gender and it's backed up by imperical evidence. If you or I went to court saying "well I identified as a woman" they will determine that to be false and we will be guilty of whatever crime.
No level of empirical evidence is being required by these ordinances. The only requirement has been identifying as the opposite gender. The LGBTQIA concept of fluid identity maintains that this is based completely on the preference of a person at any given time. In other words, I can choose to "be" a man or woman at any time, dressed any way, and change "identity" as often as I feel like it. Someone might try to argue otherwise in court, but there would be no way to prove what my "preference" is at any given time.
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Old 05-07-2016, 09:43 AM
 
2,912 posts, read 3,539,527 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlotte485 View Post
That's how I read your post. You keep reiterating nonsensical jiggery pokery and expect the proverbial Shiite to hit the fan and stick. This issue has been tried in court. The 4th circuit has said there is zero evidence that allowing transgender people to use the restroom that reflects their identity will effect anyone else or put anyone else in danger. Hundreds of women's shelters, rape shelters, and police departments around the country have states there is zero issues. On the other hand, transgender people are likely to be harassed in the restroom of their biological sex (which is really what you want. You want transgender people to go in the restroom of their biological sex so they are shamed and harassed)


Around 50-60 years ago, blacks and whites couldn't drink out of the same water fountain. Women didn't have. Equal rights, and a man even tackled a woman for running in a marathon because marathons were for men. You would absolutely been one of those people making multiple claims of "birds of a feather flock together! It's scientific proof! They're being treated equal, everyone has the same equal rights of getting the same education, the same everything. Blacks just want special treatment by mixing with whites. Whites can't drink out of black water fountains either."


It's kind of odd. You just got defeated with marriage equality and the lessons weren't learned. If you're going to have an intelligent legal reasoning, you're going to have to use logic. Not ignorant populism "if gays can get married, I'm marrying a tree frog." Those ignorant arguments will not win in any intellectual conversation just as your impossibility to logically differentiate the cause/effect of doing business in Saudi Arabia vs. NC hold zero water.


But it's nice to see conservatives are so pro doing business with states that have shady human rights efforts. I assume this now means you will get on board with embracing Cuba? It's about time!
Good grief. You seem to think that the world is divided into liberals and conservatives. This kind of binary thinking will not get you anywhere. Reality is that people's politics fall all along a continuous spectrum; I happen to be a registered Democrat, and voted twice (once per election ) for President Obama, although I think that he is dead wrong, malfeasant, and abusive on this issue. [Aside: there are 10 kinds of people in the world -- those who understand binary, and those who don't ]"

If you insist on thinking in terms of black-and-white absolutes, however, consider the following, often attributed (perhaps incorrectly) to Winston Churchill: "If a man is not a liberal when he is 20, he has no heart. If he is not a conservative by the time he is 40, he has no brain." To which i would add: if he is not a moderate by 60, he is a case of arrested development. Read Governor Martin's letter about the HB-2 issue appearing in the N&O yesterday (or perhaps the day before), and try to calm down before you hurt yourself. Remember that a lot of people are going to disagree with you, whatever the issue.

But I'm curious -- did you live through the Cuban Missile Crisis of October, 1962?

Last edited by Hamish Forbes; 05-07-2016 at 09:57 AM..
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Old 05-07-2016, 09:54 AM
 
Location: Washington DC
3,749 posts, read 3,267,604 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vulfpeck View Post
No level of empirical evidence is being required by these ordinances. The only requirement has been identifying as the opposite gender. The LGBTQIA concept of fluid identity maintains that this is based completely on the preference of a person at any given time. In other words, I can choose to "be" a man or woman at any time, dressed any way, and change "identity" as often as I feel like it. Someone might try to argue otherwise in court, but there would be no way to prove what my "preference" is at any given time.


That's like claiming "temporary insanity." You can say "oh, well I did it because I was temporarily insane" but that doesn't make it true. Just like you can claim "oh, but I felt at that given moment I was a woman" which doesn't mean you are transgender.


And if we want to by cynical about the ordinance, let's be cynical about HB2. HB2 can only be enforced by people showing their private parts to police officers. So if you or I go to the bathroom, we are going to have to flash our penis to the police so they know we are biological men.
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Old 05-07-2016, 10:06 AM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
21,879 posts, read 27,145,371 times
Reputation: 8943
Quote:
Originally Posted by vulfpeck View Post
No level of empirical evidence is being required by these ordinances. The only requirement has been identifying as the opposite gender. The LGBTQIA concept of fluid identity maintains that this is based completely on the preference of a person at any given time. In other words, I can choose to "be" a man or woman at any time, dressed any way, and change "identity" as often as I feel like it. Someone might try to argue otherwise in court, but there would be no way to prove what my "preference" is at any given time.
Maybe you can understand this. Before Charlotte's ordinance, after it was passed, & with or without HB2, if I'm in a locked stall & find you peering over or under the walls or door, you will end up with a face full of mace. I will call 911 & you will not have a legal leg to stand on.
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Old 05-07-2016, 10:29 AM
 
1,351 posts, read 742,128 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlotte485 View Post
And if we want to by cynical about the ordinance, let's be cynical about HB2. HB2 can only be enforced by people showing their private parts to police officers. So if you or I go to the bathroom, we are going to have to flash our penis to the police so they know we are biological men.
I agree that HB2's bathroom provision is unenforceable and poorly thought out. That doesn't mean that Charlotte's ordinance wasn't just as problematic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295 View Post
Maybe you can understand this. Before Charlotte's ordinance, after it was passed, & with or without HB2, if I'm in a locked stall & find you peering over or under the walls or door, you will end up with a face full of mace. I will call 911 & you will not have a legal leg to stand on.
How about a public locker room or shower, which were also covered by the ordinance?
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Old 05-07-2016, 10:29 AM
 
Location: Sneads Ferry, NC
11,233 posts, read 19,683,635 times
Reputation: 5062
Quote:
Originally Posted by vulfpeck View Post
So please explain, logically, how discrimination laws can ever be legally upheld if anyone can claim to be a protected class?
There are objective crtieria that could be writtten into non-discrimination laws. Massachusetts is in the process of writing a statute that would protect transgender identity. These criteria could include taking hormones, having a doctor's or psychologists diagnosis on a piece of paper, changing one's legal name, consistently presenting one's self as the target gender. It is much more that simply declaring that one is a particular gender, and it should not include "gender fluidity".

Oregon is also working on rules to allow transgender students to access lockers and bathrooms, as well as attempting to protect everyone's privacy.

Intelligent laws can be written, but it takes time.
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Old 05-07-2016, 10:33 AM
 
1,351 posts, read 742,128 times
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Originally Posted by goldenage1 View Post
Intelligent laws can be written, but it takes time.
I would fully support them.
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Old 05-07-2016, 10:52 AM
 
1,351 posts, read 742,128 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenage1 View Post
Massachusetts is in the process of writing a statute that would protect transgender identity. These criteria could include taking hormones, having a doctor's or psychologists diagnosis on a piece of paper, changing one's legal name, consistently presenting one's self as the target gender. It is much more that simply declaring that one is a particular gender, and it should not include "gender fluidity".
Not a bad thought. Just like handicap people are able to get a tag to use certain accommodations, legitimate trans people can receive a card from their doctor and, if they're questioned for using a certain facility, they can show it. Problem solved, no?
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