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Old 06-03-2016, 06:06 PM
Status: "North of Palm Trees, South of High Taxes" (set 4 days ago)
 
Location: Noth Caccalacca
5,589 posts, read 6,689,295 times
Reputation: 4883

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Quote:
Originally Posted by vulfpeck View Post
And yet private and charter schools perform far better at educating children, especially the poor and minority kids that the traditional public system so often fails. Amazing how that works!

But I digress. This thread is about benefits for teachers. Teachers would only benefit from the competitive job opportunities and choices that a more robust voucher system would provide. Existentially, they would also benefit from better educated students being passed into their classes, because of a stricter system of accountability for school performance. If a charter or private school is failing its students, it goes out of business. If a public school does the same, the only ones that suffer are the students themselves.
It's "amazing" how several charter schools have failed both in Charlotte and other NC cities dumping students back into the public school system and leaving teachers unemployed.

Panel vote could lead to closing of 2 troubled Charlotte charter schools | The Charlotte Observer

North Carolina sues operators of failed charter school | The Charlotte Observer

If the NC legislature thinks that largely unregulated charter school industry does such a wonderful job, perhaps they could loosen the regulations for public schools as well.

Charter schools have a mixed record of performance in comparison to public schools and in more than a few cases, do worse than public schools.

Charter, traditional schools both perform badly in new tests - NY Daily News

If the NC legislature wants to put its money where its mouth is when it comes to schools, they should offer to "fully fund" poor K-12 students who can gain admission to private schools. What good is a voucher for $4K-$5K when the tuition is $15K? This type of arrangement only benefits upper-middle class students.
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Old 06-03-2016, 07:22 PM
 
1,351 posts, read 750,896 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEmissary View Post
If the NC legislature thinks that largely unregulated charter school industry does such a wonderful job, perhaps they could loosen the regulations for public schools as well.
Coincidentally, the NC legislature is planning to do just that.

"...pilot program would allow a local school board to lump three struggling schools into a so-called "Innovation Zone" where they would be given more flexibility from state regulations, similar to the freedom afforded to public charter schools."

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEmissary View Post
It's "amazing" how several charter schools have failed both in Charlotte and other NC cities dumping students back into the public school system and leaving teachers unemployed.

Charter schools have a mixed record of performance in comparison to public schools and in more than a few cases, do worse than public schools.
Charter schools actually perform better on average, especially for lower income groups, but face extra scrutiny because they are seen as a threat to funding for traditional public school arrangements. Failing traditional schools are just so common and accepted that they go under-reported, while a failing charter school makes headlines.

""Just because we have accountability measures doesn't mean people are being held accountable," Brandon said, noting a school near his Charlotte home has performed poorly for years with no change."

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEmissary View Post
If the NC legislature wants to put its money where its mouth is when it comes to schools, they should offer to "fully fund" poor K-12 students who can gain admission to private schools. What good is a voucher for $4K-$5K when the tuition is $15K? This type of arrangement only benefits upper-middle class students.
If this bill passes, we'll get to put the theory to the test. Or our "money where our mouths are," so to speak.

"The bill would create various pilot projects aimed at turning around schools where students consistently show little academic improvement and post low scores on state tests.

...the proposal calls for the State Board of Education to select five schools across North Carolina to put in a so-called "Achievement School District," or ASD, and hire entities to run the schools.

The operators of the school would have five years to show improved student performance, and if the results don't exceed those of schools not in the program, the group's contract would be canceled."

House bill seeks new management for failing NC schools :: WRAL.com

Last edited by vulfpeck; 06-03-2016 at 07:35 PM..
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Old 06-03-2016, 10:03 PM
 
1,259 posts, read 1,268,113 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vulfpeck View Post
Coincidentally, the NC legislature is planning to do just that.

"...pilot program would allow a local school board to lump three struggling schools into a so-called "Innovation Zone" where they would be given more flexibility from state regulations, similar to the freedom afforded to public charter schools."



Charter schools actually perform better on average, especially for lower income groups, but face extra scrutiny because they are seen as a threat to funding for traditional public school arrangements. Failing traditional schools are just so common and accepted that they go under-reported, while a failing charter school makes headlines.

""Just because we have accountability measures doesn't mean people are being held accountable," Brandon said, noting a school near his Charlotte home has performed poorly for years with no change."



If this bill passes, we'll get to put the theory to the test. Or our "money where our mouths are," so to speak.

"The bill would create various pilot projects aimed at turning around schools where students consistently show little academic improvement and post low scores on state tests.

...the proposal calls for the State Board of Education to select five schools across North Carolina to put in a so-called "Achievement School District," or ASD, and hire entities to run the schools.

The operators of the school would have five years to show improved student performance, and if the results don't exceed those of schools not in the program, the group's contract would be canceled."

House bill seeks new management for failing NC schools :: WRAL.com

What's the quote insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result. There's no program that government can create that will reach most of these kids. I don't understand why you have such a hard time understanding that. It's clear your views have a conservative libertarian bent, and that's fine, but I'm always shocked when people with these viewpoints look to government for the answer. Number one it goes against just about everything you believe, and number 2 it won't work.

Regardless of what the NC state GA passes things will never change. Until something changes to where people aren't addicted to god knows what, and they decide to put their kids first this will always be an issues. See the trouble is that not only are they destroying their life. Its that in 5 short years they have destroyed an innocent precious life they created. by the the time the kids go to school at 5 years old there's no hope for them. I'm not sure you know what it's like to teach a kid that has been sexually abuse hundreds of times by the age of 8, but I'm sure you think the teacher is overpaid, and those retirement benefits you rant on, lets hope they provide for mental health because doing 15 or 20 years in an inner city is enough to break the strongest of people

I'm serious when I say there's no hope for most of these kids short of divine intervention. I'm a pretty hard person, and it takes a lot to break me, but the stories I've heard over the last 15 years are nothing short of heartbreaking, and trust me it breaks the teachers hearts, not that they can't teach these kids. No what breaks their hearts is that they can't protect these kids once they leave the school. They can't protect them from being sexually abused. They can't protect them from being beaten senseless on a daily basis. They can't make sure they have dinner. I can go on and on, but I hope these posts make you realize that the problem is so much deeper than funding, or moving them from public school to a charter school. There's no hope for these kids.
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Old 06-04-2016, 12:26 AM
 
2,361 posts, read 2,658,019 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vulfpeck View Post
Coincidentally, the NC legislature is planning to do just that.

"...pilot program would allow a local school board to lump three struggling schools into a so-called "Innovation Zone" where they would be given more flexibility from state regulations, similar to the freedom afforded to public charter schools."



Charter schools actually perform better on average, especially for lower income groups, but face extra scrutiny because they are seen as a threat to funding for traditional public school arrangements. Failing traditional schools are just so common and accepted that they go under-reported, while a failing charter school makes headlines.

""Just because we have accountability measures doesn't mean people are being held accountable," Brandon said, noting a school near his Charlotte home has performed poorly for years with no change."



If this bill passes, we'll get to put the theory to the test. Or our "money where our mouths are," so to speak.

"The bill would create various pilot projects aimed at turning around schools where students consistently show little academic improvement and post low scores on state tests.

...the proposal calls for the State Board of Education to select five schools across North Carolina to put in a so-called "Achievement School District," or ASD, and hire entities to run the schools.

The operators of the school would have five years to show improved student performance, and if the results don't exceed those of schools not in the program, the group's contract would be canceled."

House bill seeks new management for failing NC schools :: WRAL.com
It is a false statement that Charter schools perform better than average for low income group here in North Carolina. As I stated before, Charter schools in NC are racially isolated and server a far lower percentage of low income students than traditional public schools.

"Public charter schools are much more likely than regular public schools to be racially unbalanced. Whereas 30 percent of regular public school students attended a racially unbalanced school (one with less than 20 percent or more than 80 percent minority enrollment), more than 60 percent of charter school students attended a racially unbalanced school."

...and 34 of North Carolina’s 100 charter schools failed to meet annual measurable objectives (2011-2012). Pretty amazing failure rate considering how racially unbalanced the Charter schools are.
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Old 06-04-2016, 02:13 AM
 
1,351 posts, read 750,896 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlhm5 View Post
It is a false statement that Charter schools perform better than average for low income group here in North Carolina. As I stated before, Charter schools in NC are racially isolated and server a far lower percentage of low income students than traditional public schools.

"Public charter schools are much more likely than regular public schools to be racially unbalanced. Whereas 30 percent of regular public school students attended a racially unbalanced school (one with less than 20 percent or more than 80 percent minority enrollment), more than 60 percent of charter school students attended a racially unbalanced school."
It is an absolutely true statement that charter schools perform better for low income students, as well as ALL other students except those deemed academically gifted, who perform about the same wherever they are.

DPI calculations reveal NC public charters better serve 12 of 13 student groups - Chatham Journal Newspaper

Charter schools are better, but beneficiaries of educational monopoly would punish kids to avoid competition.

Last edited by vulfpeck; 06-04-2016 at 02:37 AM..
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Old 06-04-2016, 08:49 AM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
21,963 posts, read 27,247,096 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vulfpeck View Post
It is an absolutely true statement that charter schools perform better for low income students, as well as ALL other students except those deemed academically gifted, who perform about the same wherever they are.

DPI calculations reveal NC public charters better serve 12 of 13 student groups - Chatham Journal Newspaper

Charter schools are better, but beneficiaries of educational monopoly would punish kids to avoid competition.
Look at the results of charters in Philadelphia & Camden, NJ. Results were much the same in Philadelphia as in Charlotte. The charters in Camden were outright, abject failures.

Charter schools are not the magic bullet. However, charter school owners are frequently heavy donors to Republicans.
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Old 06-04-2016, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Houston, TX
3,679 posts, read 1,412,155 times
Reputation: 1495
Just throwing this nugget out there


http://www.camelcitydispatch.com/wp-...-inflation.jpg
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Old 06-04-2016, 10:15 AM
 
2,647 posts, read 6,083,157 times
Reputation: 3408
Quote:
Originally Posted by vulfpeck View Post
It is an absolutely true statement that charter schools perform better for low income students, as well as ALL other students except those deemed academically gifted, who perform about the same wherever they are.

DPI calculations reveal NC public charters better serve 12 of 13 student groups - Chatham Journal Newspaper

Charter schools are better, but beneficiaries of educational monopoly would punish kids to avoid competition.
Your interpretation of that article is quite misleading. First, public schools are forced to deal with all levels of kids, from all socio-economic backgrounds. Not so with charter schools. While they do accept all kinds of kids on paper, the reality is that charter schools are less diverse and their kids, on average, come from more wealthy families. Second, comparing results among demographic groups is meaningless without additional information. For example, does the average intellectual level of minority kids in charter schools mirror that of the public schools? I would guess not, but with no data on that it's impossible to say the school is the reason for the higher test scores. The higher test scores at charters is more likely the result of having a higher percentage of intelligent kids from higher socio-economic levels rather than the school being "better".
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Old 06-04-2016, 10:52 AM
 
1,351 posts, read 750,896 times
Reputation: 916
You're right, it's not a completely apples to apples comparison if parents have to opt in to charters. That's why the plan the NCGA is working on to turn several schools over to charter control should yield such useful results. All the kids in that scenario won't be self-selected, so to speak.

Don't be so afraid of alternative education options. School competition and accountability will only help the kids in the long run. We shouldn't punish them to placate teachers unions and other beneficiaries of the current monopoly.
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Old 06-04-2016, 01:03 PM
Status: "North of Palm Trees, South of High Taxes" (set 4 days ago)
 
Location: Noth Caccalacca
5,589 posts, read 6,689,295 times
Reputation: 4883
Quote:
Originally Posted by vulfpeck View Post
You're right, it's not a completely apples to apples comparison if parents have to opt in to charters. That's why the plan the NCGA is working on to turn several schools over to charter control should yield such useful results. All the kids in that scenario won't be self-selected, so to speak.

Don't be so afraid of alternative education options. School competition and accountability will only help the kids in the long run. We shouldn't punish them to placate teachers unions and other beneficiaries of the current monopoly.
There are no teacher unions in NC!
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