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Looks like Apple DID buy the 281 acre lot site in RTP. North Carolina politically is just too crazy to make any development plan at the moment. So they're expanding in Texas for now. Imagine a world where Texas is more politically stable than North Carolina. Good job, NCGA. This whole election fraud probably doesn't help as well.
Very interesting. Yet stings because it looks like NC did indeed screw themselves out of Apple. Maybe we'll get HQ3 down the line lol.
When Raleigh gets the demand for taller building I am sure they will build them.
I would seriously doubt that. The problem with Raleigh is in leadership, at least at this point. With their idiotic and unjustified height limits, they force developers into thinking small and delivering just enough to pass as serious about Downtown Raleigh. Many of them have already figured it out... Build something that will become a success, right away, and sell it soon afterwards. If you were a large company, why in the Earth would you like to place your logo on the top of a 15-story that will eventually be invisible in the skyline? The recent fiasco with the N&O parcel is a perfect example of this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by raleighsocial
Looks like Apple DID buy the 281 acre lot site in RTP. North Carolina politically is just too crazy to make any development plan at the moment. So they're expanding in Texas for now. Imagine a world where Texas is more politically stable than North Carolina. Good job, NCGA. This whole election fraud probably doesn't help as well.
Are you really that naive? Enough with that NCGA talk. Big companies do not decide using our own criteria. Apple decided on Austin because Austin (and Texas) have more to offer, plain and simple. If Apple's criteria was based on politics and non-existent issues, then the Hell with them... I don't want Apple anywhere near us. Their own practices over the years are far worse than what you accuse NCGA for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trent Y
This is an ambitious project. Over 1.5million sqft of space in total. Grocery store planned. Pedestrian oriented retail plaza throughout the block. A 20 story condo tower was the biggest surprise for me. Multiple roof top lounges and terraces. I was originally disappointed it wasn't one huge tower like the old developers wanted, but after seeing the full plans I'm all for it. Such a cool project for DTR. Crossing my fingers it gets built out exactly as planned.
Sorry, Trent Y, but this is a lame excuse for building small buildings. The retail is alley-oriented and nowhere near what we need in Downtown Raleigh. Very introverted, although some forumers seem to settle for small buildings when they see retail. In my opinion, the 15-story office is a pathetic proposal. I'd rather see a 6-story parking deck in the middle of the parcel, with a 25-story office tower above it and wrapped with a hotel, like The Origin, except with much more depth. They could even wrap one side of the structure with small office spaces (much like The Origin) and make those affordable for small companies (i.e. up to 10 people). They could even cover the parking deck and make that an open area that they can rent for weddings, receptions and other events. I am happy about the 20-story residential buildings, but the office/hotel portion and the alley-oriented retail make this project a big No-No for me. Just a personal opinion.
The biggest problem with this project is the stupid zoning that the Planning Dept put in place - and the City Council gladly voted for. For those who will rush to talk about obsession with heights, please keep in mind that this is going to be an 1.5 million square feet project, inside the CBD. We should be able to get at least a 500,000sf tower out of this. Two Hanover Square is about 450,000sf, just for reference. Much like in the case of 301 Hillsborough, the rezoning process is either unclear or intimidating to the developers. Mr Fallon, spoke about it when he discussed 301 Hillsborough and I was sad to read this in the N&O:
Quote:
The project currently fits under the city’s zoning for the property, which only allows 20 stories. Fallon said his company ultimately decided to not ask for more height because it didn’t want to start a conflict with the city.
“We recognize that not being from Raleigh, we didn’t want to come in and ruffle feathers — we’re not about conflict,” he said. “It’s great if everyone loves your project — but that almost never happens — but if these people kind of respect the way you went about doing it, then that helps. ... We don’t want to be the firm from the northeast that’s coming to try to bully people.”
How in the Earth can we call "a request for rezoning" bullying? We should be thankful that a developer brings such a huge investment Downtown. In fact, for projects over a million square feet, a rezoning should be granted much faster - where it makes sense, of course. Making a developer feel guilty if he asks for rezoning is not exactly a good practice, IMHO.
People over on different site have just shown the first renders of the N&O site in downtown Raleigh. 4 different towers, two of them two 20 story residential towers, 1 15 story office tower, and 1 14 story hotel. Office tower will be built first and finished in 2021 or 2022 if all goes to plan.
That means 400H, 301H, and N&O sites will all be breaking ground in the next 2 years not including the 20 story Union Station tower, Kane's projects, the Edison, 20 story City Hall campus.
N&O updated their report and are now saying the office tower is 20 stories not 15. I guess the misreport came from not understand that it was 15 story office on top of 5 stories of parking. I think there will be 3 levels of underground parking as well.
N&O updated their report and are now saying the office tower is 20 stories not 15. I guess the misreport came from not understand that it was 15 story office on top of 5 stories of parking. I think there will be 3 levels of underground parking as well.
Effectively 15 surface levels of office facing the street. They are probably referencing the parking side as 20 stories because there's several underground parking levels as well as above ground.
I would seriously doubt that. The problem with Raleigh is in leadership, at least at this point. With their idiotic and unjustified height limits, they force developers into thinking small and delivering just enough to pass as serious about Downtown Raleigh. Many of them have already figured it out... Build something that will become a success, right away, and sell it soon afterwards. If you were a large company, why in the Earth would you like to place your logo on the top of a 15-story that will eventually be invisible in the skyline? The recent fiasco with the N&O parcel is a perfect example of this.
Are you really that naive? Enough with that NCGA talk. Big companies do not decide using our own criteria. Apple decided on Austin because Austin (and Texas) have more to offer, plain and simple. If Apple's criteria was based on politics and non-existent issues, then the Hell with them... I don't want Apple anywhere near us. Their own practices over the years are far worse than what you accuse NCGA for.
Sorry, Trent Y, but this is a lame excuse for building small buildings. The retail is alley-oriented and nowhere near what we need in Downtown Raleigh. Very introverted, although some forumers seem to settle for small buildings when they see retail. In my opinion, the 15-story office is a pathetic proposal. I'd rather see a 6-story parking deck in the middle of the parcel, with a 25-story office tower above it and wrapped with a hotel, like The Origin, except with much more depth. They could even wrap one side of the structure with small office spaces (much like The Origin) and make those affordable for small companies (i.e. up to 10 people). They could even cover the parking deck and make that an open area that they can rent for weddings, receptions and other events. I am happy about the 20-story residential buildings, but the office/hotel portion and the alley-oriented retail make this project a big No-No for me. Just a personal opinion.
The biggest problem with this project is the stupid zoning that the Planning Dept put in place - and the City Council gladly voted for. For those who will rush to talk about obsession with heights, please keep in mind that this is going to be an 1.5 million square feet project, inside the CBD. We should be able to get at least a 500,000sf tower out of this. Two Hanover Square is about 450,000sf, just for reference. Much like in the case of 301 Hillsborough, the rezoning process is either unclear or intimidating to the developers. Mr Fallon, spoke about it when he discussed 301 Hillsborough and I was sad to read this in the N&O:
How in the Earth can we call "a request for rezoning" bullying? We should be thankful that a developer brings such a huge investment Downtown. In fact, for projects over a million square feet, a rezoning should be granted much faster - where it makes sense, of course. Making a developer feel guilty if he asks for rezoning is not exactly a good practice, IMHO.
Quote from a news site that broke this news: “Apple – at least right now – has no immediate plans to build on the 281-acre site, and is instead watching North Carolina’s political landscape as it expands in Texas, insiders say.”
@raleighmsa I agree that the city council is an issue for developers right now. Fallon confirmed that and I believe the One Glenwood developers talked about that as well. Whether the zoning reasons are legitimate or not idk. But I still stand by the fact that demand drives development more then anything. When developers NEED to go taller, they will. And I don't think the city will fight it. Are we missing out on potentially more height? Possibly. But Fallon is already building on speculation. It's cool that they said they could have gone for more height but it's not like they had a tenant lined up that NEEDED more height. Get what I'm saying?
And I'm sorry our opinions will just have to clash here. 4 total "towers" on a city block next to the Fayetteville street district is going to do massive things for the core. Tons of retail, another small grocer, and people focus. I can stand behind that all day. Like was mentioned here recently, height doesn't make a city great. Makes it look great on a postcard. But DTR is getting a butt load of development and it's all development that we need and should want to see for a downtown that people want to live, work, play, visit, etc etc. With everything announced and planned DTR is going to go through massive changes that will propel into that next league of cities as far as downtowns go. If it looks more built out like Richmond instead of Charlotte I'm fine with that. Richmond still looks huge for a city it's size. And the pedestrian experience is where DTR will shine. That will attract more demand for height for two reasons. 1. Less lots to build on will simply require more height. 2. A booming core will continues to make Raleigh more attractive for bigger companies looking to expand and relocate. Idk that's just the way I see it.
Quote from a news site that broke this news: “Apple – at least right now – has no immediate plans to build on the 281-acre site, and is instead watching North Carolina’s political landscape as it expands in Texas, insiders say.”
Sorry, I thought it was your own statement, which of course is an opinion you have EVERY right to express. These days I am a bit upset about the whole N&O mess and I am a little quick to react. Nothing personal towards you, but the N&O's tendency to turn everything into a political issue is something we should always watch out for. There are many good people on both sides of the isle, who work together, very hard, in order to attract new business to our state. The N&O doesn't seem to care much about that.
@raleighmsa I agree that the city council is an issue for developers right now. Fallon confirmed that and I believe the One Glenwood developers talked about that as well. Whether the zoning reasons are legitimate or not idk. But I still stand by the fact that demand drives development more then anything. When developers NEED to go taller, they will. And I don't think the city will fight it. Are we missing out on potentially more height? Possibly. But Fallon is already building on speculation. It's cool that they said they could have gone for more height but it's not like they had a tenant lined up that NEEDED more height. Get what I'm saying?
And I'm sorry our opinions will just have to clash here. 4 total "towers" on a city block next to the Fayetteville street district is going to do massive things for the core. Tons of retail, another small grocer, and people focus. I can stand behind that all day. Like was mentioned here recently, height doesn't make a city great. Makes it look great on a postcard. But DTR is getting a butt load of development and it's all development that we need and should want to see for a downtown that people want to live, work, play, visit, etc etc. With everything announced and planned DTR is going to go through massive changes that will propel into that next league of cities as far as downtowns go. If it looks more built out like Richmond instead of Charlotte I'm fine with that. Richmond still looks huge for a city it's size. And the pedestrian experience is where DTR will shine. That will attract more demand for height for two reasons. 1. Less lots to build on will simply require more height. 2. A booming core will continues to make Raleigh more attractive for bigger companies looking to expand and relocate. Idk that's just the way I see it.
Trent Y, first and foremost I want to say that my objections are not towards individuals. Any disagreements I may express, please know that it is not done without respect towards forumers who deserve it, such as as yourself. I say this in case you start getting inpatient with my replies
Having said that, I am just frustrated with how excited we allow ourselves to feel with subpar developments. Because this is what this project is. I am appreciative of the overall size of this proposal and the fact that some people are about to invest a ton of money in Downtown Raleigh. Also, I have no issues with the two 20-story residential buildings or the 13-story hotel - sorry, I can't call those "towers". I do have serious concerns that the office component and the alley-oriented retail will create problems in the future. Alley type of retail may work fine on older European cities, but in our case it will take away the activity from where we want and need it. With regards to the office component, the whole "market demand" argument is no longer valid. There are a lot of projects under way and in the pipe line that prove the exact opposite. I would not put too much faith in what many developers say about speculative space. Rest assured that there is interest and developers are working hard to win those accounts, but they do so very secretly. Downtown Raleigh's problem has been low availability of office space, for a very long time now. I am not talking about 10,000sf, but space over 100,000sf.
This project would look fine in areas like Glenwood South, The Warehouse District, Moore Square or South of Nash Square, but in the current location will only add to the boring skyline we have. When I talk of skyline, I speak of the image we project to the interested parties. A large company that may be interested in operating out of Downtown Raleigh may wonder why Raleigh's skyline look the same for over 11 years now. If there is so much going on, why can't we see that? When you look at Bellevue, WA, you can find evidence of progress. For a city of less than 150,000, it surely puts us to shame. They have an image they can sell. We have an image that we have to hide. Have you noticed Raleigh's older skyline appearing in recent publications? I have and I can see why they use old photos... Because there is little difference between then and now. It is not just about height. I would be OK with a 25-story building, but 15 stories is a slap in the face, IMHO. It would make it hard to attract a large company, in hope of placing their logo "up there".
Lastly, as you already know, the height limits the city imposed on Downtown have already made an impact. There are people who already expressed their disappointment, but I can assure you that there are local developers - to whom I had the opportunity to talk - who want to build taller, but they don't want to go through the process of rezoning because they find it intimidating and too demanding. If we don't get rid of this Planning Dept and most of the City Council members, we are in for a long period of disappointment and failures. I hope that you are right and I am wrong, but I don't see any larger employers choosing Downtown Raleigh in the nearest future. If the N&O parcel gets developed as proposed, the image of our city will remain underwhelming and prime real estate will be wasted. If you like flat skylines, then you will get your wish.
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