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Old 04-03-2019, 12:47 PM
 
Location: Noth Caccalacca
5,554 posts, read 6,670,208 times
Reputation: 4847

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wheelsup does make some valid points about what he perceives as a changing economic landscape. But the devil is in the details! Sometime down the line, we may have to offer economic help for those able-bodied people who want to work, but can't find a job no matter how hard they look! The UK and most of Europe have lots of people who are "on the dole" for many years, because the jobs to gainfully employ them simply don't exist and never will.

The USA is slowly finding out that our free enterprise system will never lead to 100% employment of people who want to work. What do we do about it to maintain a civil society? Pay people something to keep them from being homeless or create a world in which the attitude of "I got mine ...too bad for you!" is the dominant one. The latter will not make for a happy world for sure.

"Pulling yourself up by your bootstraps" worked in the 19th century and for about half of the 20th century. It's no longer a guarantee of success in today's world. What do you tell someone who makes $20,000-$25,000 and receives Medicaid for for herself and SCHIP health care for her kids, when she gets a raise to $30,000 and loses all of those benefits? She's now worse off with that raise than she was before she got it! If she's working 2 jobs to make that amount, she can't work 3 to get ahead. Given her responsibilities in life, that's impossible. Many poor, industrious people are in that category.

I get a kick out of those private school commercials on TV, like the University of Phoenix that show some young person working in a dead-end job who can't attend the affordable community college course because of their working hours. They sign up for U of P graduate and live happily ever after ...right? University of Phoenix tuition is nearly $12,000 a year. Even a couple of courses a year is unaffordable for someone making a few bucks over the minimum wage. If they fail to graduate, they have all that debt to go along with their crappy job!

Job training for older adults is another fallacy and fantasy. All of those unemployed 40-50 year old West Virginia coal miners are not going to become crack Visual C++ programmers with a couple of semesters at the local job training center. Even if they did, where would they find a job in West Virginia? Should they move to Silicon Valley where the average 1000 sq foot home costs $1,200,000 and hope for the best? Or move to San Francisco, where they can join $170,000 a year Google employees living in their cars because they can't afford the $4000 a month for a rare one bedroom apartment? Homes can rent for $10,000-$12,000 a month

True "Horatio Alger success stories" are few and far between. The rungs at the bottom of the economic ladder are getting farther and farther apart. The middle class are holding on by their fingertips. Only the wealthy are enjoying the current fruits of America's economic success.

That latest tax cut got a middle-class person maybe $40 a month more. I'm sure the average multi-millionaire is enjoying their $40,000 a month increase even more!

Welcome to the new economic reality!

Last edited by TheEmissary; 04-03-2019 at 12:57 PM..
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Old 04-04-2019, 11:06 AM
 
11,825 posts, read 21,394,840 times
Reputation: 11539
Quote:
Originally Posted by TarHeelNick View Post
Nah.

That sounds like some Alex Jones/Sean Hannnity kool-aid. Sorry it's a no from me dawg.
Well, I don't watch Fox News. But they do have some crazy thoughts on the extreme far right.
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Old 04-04-2019, 11:25 AM
 
292 posts, read 97,480 times
Reputation: 552
Some have mentioned paying people based on how productive they are. It's a good concept, in reality it would be hard to setup and enforce. But why just on the lower end of pay? There are plenty of higher payed workers that are very lazy, and there are plenty of hard workers that aren't making enough money. Minimum wage is not perfect. Anyone working full time should be able to afford a roof, food, clothes, transportation, without government assistance though. Work ethics should be handled by performance reviews from managers.
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Old 04-04-2019, 11:30 AM
 
11,825 posts, read 21,394,840 times
Reputation: 11539
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEmissary View Post
wheelsup does make some valid points about what he perceives as a changing economic landscape. But the devil is in the details! Sometime down the line, we may have to offer economic help for those able-bodied people who want to work, but can't find a job no matter how hard they look! The UK and most of Europe have lots of people who are "on the dole" for many years, because the jobs to gainfully employ them simply don't exist and never will.

The USA is slowly finding out that our free enterprise system will never lead to 100% employment of people who want to work. What do we do about it to maintain a civil society? Pay people something to keep them from being homeless or create a world in which the attitude of "I got mine ...too bad for you!" is the dominant one. The latter will not make for a happy world for sure.

"Pulling yourself up by your bootstraps" worked in the 19th century and for about half of the 20th century. It's no longer a guarantee of success in today's world. What do you tell someone who makes $20,000-$25,000 and receives Medicaid for for herself and SCHIP health care for her kids, when she gets a raise to $30,000 and loses all of those benefits? She's now worse off with that raise than she was before she got it! If she's working 2 jobs to make that amount, she can't work 3 to get ahead. Given her responsibilities in life, that's impossible. Many poor, industrious people are in that category.

I get a kick out of those private school commercials on TV, like the University of Phoenix that show some young person working in a dead-end job who can't attend the affordable community college course because of their working hours. They sign up for U of P graduate and live happily ever after ...right? University of Phoenix tuition is nearly $12,000 a year. Even a couple of courses a year is unaffordable for someone making a few bucks over the minimum wage. If they fail to graduate, they have all that debt to go along with their crappy job!

Job training for older adults is another fallacy and fantasy. All of those unemployed 40-50 year old West Virginia coal miners are not going to become crack Visual C++ programmers with a couple of semesters at the local job training center. Even if they did, where would they find a job in West Virginia? Should they move to Silicon Valley where the average 1000 sq foot home costs $1,200,000 and hope for the best? Or move to San Francisco, where they can join $170,000 a year Google employees living in their cars because they can't afford the $4000 a month for a rare one bedroom apartment? Homes can rent for $10,000-$12,000 a month

True "Horatio Alger success stories" are few and far between. The rungs at the bottom of the economic ladder are getting farther and farther apart. The middle class are holding on by their fingertips. Only the wealthy are enjoying the current fruits of America's economic success.

That latest tax cut got a middle-class person maybe $40 a month more. I'm sure the average multi-millionaire is enjoying their $40,000 a month increase even more!

Welcome to the new economic reality!
Actually there are programs for miners to learn to code. They have been fairly successful. When the Army looks for new coders they actually are finding their blue collar enlisted folks working mechanical jobs are the best learners. Same goes for the coal miners. There are some companies bringing coding jobs to the area because costs are so much less. You should read up on it. Bloomberg had a good article several years ago that I read on the subject.

I'm not sure why people focus so much on these people working low wage jobs with kids. That was their decision to have kids and not work their way into better jobs prior to having them. Now they are stuck. That shouldn't be society's concern nor should we encourage that behavior. But we have been, and now suddenly we're shocked at the result?

Not everyone needs to go to college. My industry doesn't require a degree. First year wages have grown 3x from when I got into it 15 years ago, but I still made it work (roughly $20k first year). Currently it's around $60k to start. A few years in you are making low six figures. A decade to fifteen years in you will be around $300k. No degree.

Ok, so you don't want to put that much effort in. Fine. HVAC helpers are $12/hr to start in Raleigh. $18 after your first year. Installers after some experience make upwards of $80k-$100k. No degree, no formal training required.

There are so many jobs out there for people wanting to put in some time and effort. But many don't, and instead look to politicians to solve their problems for them. "Give me more money!". Then everyone is surprised when the price of good and services, housing, etc go up.

I was there once. I felt a higher min wage would better serve our country. But it won't. It will only hurt those who wanted it even more.

What's needed is true immigration reform and a solid growing economy so everyone who wants a shot at a better life can take it. But those who don't, shouldn't be handed anything. I'm sorry. I'm just so over the woe is me stories that all start out the same. I once lived in a two bedroom apartment with 17(!) beds in order to save money. I moved across the country multiple times. I shoveled every pay raise into the stock market to invest long term. My wife drove a car without AC for several years until we could afford to fix it. Our first year in our house our heat was set to the low 60's because we couldn't afford to pay for it to be warmer (lost a boatload of income collectively due to the economy). I'm so over people with zero work ethic or desire to improve their skills demanding things but enjoying their entitlement to electronic gadgets, new cars, luxury apartments, and eating out all the time.
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