Charlotte vs Raleigh: No holds barred! (Durham, Fayetteville: best cities, transplants, 2010)

[urbancharlotte]

In all honesty, the most comparable cities to Charlotte are Indy, Columbus Ohio, Cincinnati, and Kansas City. I have said this many times before and I will say it again on this thread. Charlotte and Raleigh would NEVER be mentioned in the same sentence if these two cities were in different regions or states.

I say this because Raleigh has a MSA of 1 million people. Charlotte's is 1.7 million. If you add Durham to Raleigh, you get a CSA of 1.6 million. Charlotte's CSA is 2.4 million. Raleigh's city population is 390,000. Charlotte's city population is nearly 700,000.

Wake county has 900,000 people (832 sq/mi of land)
Meck county has 930,000 people (526 sq/mi of land)

No matter how you slice it, Charlotte is 40 to 60% larger than Raleigh (even with Durham's help).

Now that I have had my little numbers rant, I must say that I am very proud of Charlotte and Raleigh's ability to attract newcomers. Both of these areas are BOOMING. I am convinced Charlotte is in the "Atlanta" direction while Raleigh/Durham is in the "Tampa/St. Pete" direction.

Originally Posted by adavi215

it is time for Raleigh to look like its size, IMO.

I feel that Raleigh does look like a city of 390,000. Let's face it. How did Charlotte look in the late 80s? The late 80s was when Charlotte's population was just under 400K. Don't let the CSA population of the Triangle fool you. Raleigh (by itself) is doing just fine for its size. There IS a 20 year difference between THE CITY of Charlotte and THE CITY of Raleigh. 20 years ago, Charlotte's skyline and downtown were weak. Downtown Charlotte (20 years ago) was actually quite dead to compare to downtown Raleigh of today. The old City Fair block was about the only thing jumping at night in uptown 20 years ago. Today, the Hearst tower sits on that block. Epicentre is actually Charlotte's second attempt at an uptown entertainment complex. City Fair was the first to my knowledge.

Here are two photos of Charlotte's skyline taken from the 37th floor of the VUE.





courtesy of vue flickr page

I have no clue whether or not Raleigh will have a skyline or "big city" look/feel like Charlotte in 20 years. That will all depend on the economy, business community, and the local leaders in Raleigh.

As for Charlotte, I know for a fact that the Levine family is VERY interested in building more residential towers on the land that they own in 1st ward. I am talking about all of those surface lots near Imaginon. The new 12 story UNCC building in 1st ward should be a development catalyst in that area also.

In addition to Uptown's future development, South End is not going to stop building either. That area (South End) is destined to be an extension of Uptown. Charlotte's skyline will end in South End 20 years from now (think of present day midtown and downtown Atlanta). That is what I see happening with Uptown and South End. The LYNX and cheaper land in South End (compared to uptown) will continue to be the catalyst behind South End's urban/skyscraper rise.

[adavi215]

Originally Posted by urbancharlotte

In all honesty, the most comparable cities to Charlotte are Indy, Columbus Ohio, Cincinnati, and Kansas City. I have said this many times before and I will say it again on this thread. Charlotte and Raleigh would NEVER be mentioned in the same sentence if these two cities were in different regions or states.

I say this because Raleigh has a MSA of 1 million people. Charlotte's is 1.7 million. If you add Durham to Raleigh, you get a CSA of 1.6 million. Charlotte's CSA is 2.4 million. Raleigh's city population is 390,000. Charlotte's city population is nearly 700,000.

Wake county has 900,000 people (832 sq/mi of land)
Meck county has 930,000 people (526 sq/mi of land)

No matter how you slice it, Charlotte is 40 to 60% larger than Raleigh (even with Durham's help).

Now that I have had my little numbers rant, I must say that I am very proud of Charlotte and Raleigh's ability to attract newcomers. Both of these areas are BOOMING. I am convinced Charlotte is in the "Atlanta" direction while Raleigh/Durham is in the "Tampa/St. Pete" direction.

I feel that Raleigh does look like a city of 390,000. Let's face it. How did Charlotte look in the late 80s? The late 80s was when Charlotte's population was just under 400K. Don't let the CSA population of the Triangle fool you. Raleigh (by itself) is doing just fine for its size. There IS a 20 year difference between THE CITY of Charlotte and THE CITY of Raleigh. 20 years ago, Charlotte's skyline and downtown were weak. Downtown Charlotte (20 years ago) was actually quite dead to compare to downtown Raleigh of today. The old City Fair block was about the only thing jumping at night in uptown 20 years ago. Today, the Hearst tower sits on that block. Epicentre is actually Charlotte's second attempt at an uptown entertainment complex. City Fair was the first to my knowledge.

Here are two photos of Charlotte's skyline taken from the 37th floor of the VUE.





courtesy of vue flickr page

I have no clue whether or not Raleigh will have a skyline or "big city" look/feel like Charlotte in 20 years. That will all depend on the economy, business community, and the local leaders in Raleigh.

As for Charlotte, I know for a fact that the Levine family is VERY interested in building more residential towers on the land that they own in 1st ward. I am talking about all of those surface lots near Imaginon. The new 12 story UNCC building in 1st ward should be a development catalyst in that area also.

In addition to Uptown's future development, South End is not going to stop building either. That area (South End) is destined to be an extension of Uptown. Charlotte's skyline will end in South End 20 years from now (think of present day midtown and downtown Atlanta). That is what I see happening with Uptown and South End. The LYNX and cheaper land in South End (compared to uptown) will continue to be the catalyst behind South End's urban/skyscraper rise.

I think you're right. I realized that about Charlotte and Raleigh. I think actually a bettere comparison would be Charlotte of the 80s to present day. I will have to look at the historical growth of Tampa/St. Petersburg so I can understand what you're saying in that Raleigh/Durham is growing in that direction. I can easily see Charlotte growing in the way of Atlanta. Not only with Uptown?Southend, but we have several miniature "buckheads" in Southpark, University City, and Ballantyne, that have a skyline of sort on their own.

Referring back to the comparison between Charlotte and Raleigh and the point of each representing Atlanta and the Tampa Bay respectively, Atlanta may be twice the size, but Tampa ain't no sleeper. (I used bad english to empasize the point. Lol.)

[metro.m]

Originally Posted by urbancharlotte

In all honesty, the most comparable cities to Charlotte are Indy, Columbus Ohio, Cincinnati, and Kansas City. I have said this many times before and I will say it again on this thread. Charlotte and Raleigh would NEVER be mentioned in the same sentence if these two cities were in different regions or states.

I say this because Raleigh has a MSA of 1 million people. Charlotte's is 1.7 million. If you add Durham to Raleigh, you get a CSA of 1.6 million. Charlotte's CSA is 2.4 million. Raleigh's city population is 390,000. Charlotte's city population is nearly 700,000.

Wake county has 900,000 people (832 sq/mi of land)
Meck county has 930,000 people (526 sq/mi of land)

No matter how you slice it, Charlotte is 40 to 60% larger than Raleigh (even with Durham's help).

Now that I have had my little numbers rant, I must say that I am very proud of Charlotte and Raleigh's ability to attract newcomers. Both of these areas are BOOMING. I am convinced Charlotte is in the "Atlanta" direction while Raleigh/Durham is in the "Tampa/St. Pete" direction.

I feel that Raleigh does look like a city of 390,000. Let's face it. How did Charlotte look in the late 80s? The late 80s was when Charlotte's population was just under 400K. Don't let the CSA population of the Triangle fool you. Raleigh (by itself) is doing just fine for its size. There IS a 20 year difference between THE CITY of Charlotte and THE CITY of Raleigh. 20 years ago, Charlotte's skyline and downtown were weak. Downtown Charlotte (20 years ago) was actually quite dead to compare to downtown Raleigh of today. The old City Fair block was about the only thing jumping at night in uptown 20 years ago. Today, the Hearst tower sits on that block. Epicentre is actually Charlotte's second attempt at an uptown entertainment complex. City Fair was the first to my knowledge.

Here are two photos of Charlotte's skyline taken from the 37th floor of the VUE.





courtesy of vue flickr page

I have no clue whether or not Raleigh will have a skyline or "big city" look/feel like Charlotte in 20 years. That will all depend on the economy, business community, and the local leaders in Raleigh.

As for Charlotte, I know for a fact that the Levine family is VERY interested in building more residential towers on the land that they own in 1st ward. I am talking about all of those surface lots near Imaginon. The new 12 story UNCC building in 1st ward should be a development catalyst in that area also.

In addition to Uptown's future development, South End is not going to stop building either. That area (South End) is destined to be an extension of Uptown. Charlotte's skyline will end in South End 20 years from now (think of present day midtown and downtown Atlanta). That is what I see happening with Uptown and South End. The LYNX and cheaper land in South End (compared to uptown) will continue to be the catalyst behind South End's urban/skyscraper rise.

Same skewed numbers over and over. The true definition of a troll. A troll that does not understand, why people favor certain cities... Sad.

[urbancharlotte]

Here are some interesting facts about Charlotte and Raleigh's growth over the last 30 years.

Metro.M, These numbers are for you especially.

Charlotte had 138 sq/mi of land in 1980
Raleigh had 54 sq/mi of land in 1980

Charlotte currently has 287 sq/mi of land (an increase of 108% since 1980)
Raleigh currently has 140 sq/mi of land (an increase of 159% since 1980)

Charlotte's population went from 315K (1980) to 675K (2007). 114% increase.
Raleigh's population went from 150K (1980) to 367K (2007). 145% increase.

Here is the link
http://www.osbm.state.nc.us/ncosbm/f...g/ppla8007.htm

Charlotte's rate of growth over the last 30 years has been 6% higher than Charlotte's rate of annexation.

Raleigh's rate of growth over the last 30 years has been 14% less than Raleigh's rate of annexation.

If Charlotte is the "Queen" of growth by annexation; Raleigh is certainly her King.

[NCN]

The real questions are about air pollution and water. Which one will run out of water first and which one will get a good public transportation system going.

When we first moved to Charlotte, it was using 2% of its available water. Wonder what that figure is now.

Raleigh seems to have the same water problems.

Beyond that, it is mostly about the weather. Charlotte is hotter and Raleigh has more snow.

I was feeling a little under the weather this morning and didn't go to church. I saw a show that I usually don't see on TV. It was homes available in the area. Houses that I wouldn't want to live in in the Charlotte area were for sale for over $600,000. What is going on?

[adavi215]

Originally Posted by NCN

The real questions are about air pollution and water. Which one will run out of water first and which one will get a good public transportation system going.

When we first moved to Charlotte, it was using 2% of its available water. Wonder what that figure is now.

Raleigh seems to have the same water problems.

Beyond that, it is mostly about the weather. Charlotte is hotter and Raleigh has more snow.

I was feeling a little under the weather this morning and didn't go to church. I saw a show that I usually don't see on TV. It was homes available in the area. Houses that I wouldn't want to live in in the Charlotte area were for sale for over $600,000. What is going on?

You bring up some very good points. I like the improvements that Charlotte is makin in its infrastructure however it is not enough. I have no idea what Raleigh is doing about its infrastructure. Both areas need to encourage denser development for reasons above mentioned.

[Akhenaton06]

Originally Posted by metro.m

BTW it's Charlotte NC, not SC.

Who said "Charlotte, SC"?

[keep_durham_funky]

i'm going to be honest. I just read the inital post and that is it. I really got offended when people lumped Durham with raleigh. Two distinct places.

First, Raleigh must edge over durham before it can size up to C-town, and quite frankly regarding "feel" it has yet to do that. I reside in durham and even though I am not a big fan of civic pride and the gentrification happening in this area I can say, durham is at the cusp. When I say durham, i am not talking about the metropolitan area or even durham in coglomeration with chapel hill. I am talking about the once deemed armpit of the triangle that just ranked in the top 10 places to live according to us news without the help of raleigh. In 5 years, durham will be the place to be culturally, which is all that matters. I ask a serious question.

what is raleigh really contributing to the triangle?

If the answer to this is "a clean, sleak sky line" then you must dig deeper. First and foremost, at this point, within the last 2 years, Raleigh has not made the strides that durham, yes that prodominently black city, is making. This of course goes as far as culture, which quite frankly is what people really need to look at. Just look at durham 6 years ago, and now look at it today. When people compare durham to raleigh in all honesty they are being a bit too modest. I am looking at durham compared to austin, or seattle. Raleigh is a great city, but at this point it is not even competing with durham so why compare it to charlotte which could possibly compete with seattle.

I ask you this...

What sort of scene is there in Raleigh?

You people probably can't answer that. In durham, there is a definitive culture whether it revolves around the durham bulls (bull durham the movie, how many movies have been filmed in raleigh), tobacco warehouses, or black wall street. Durham is simply outshining raleigh's pristine, bland image at this point.

Alot of people ask, "is this durham's time to gloat?"

Quite frankly, yes. Soooo until raleigh stack up as far as the cultural accolades, which is what matters most, can you all do me a favor, and stop lumping raleigh with durham.

P.S. Most of RTP is in Durham. So is one of the top hospitals in the country and one of the top schools. NC States not a top tier imo.

[prwfromnc]

Originally Posted by keep_durham_funky

i'm going to be honest. I just read the inital post and that is it. I really got offended when people lumped Durham with raleigh. Two distinct places.

First, Raleigh must edge over durham before it can size up to C-town, and quite frankly regarding "feel" it has yet to do that. I reside in durham and even though I am not a big fan of civic pride and the gentrification happening in this area I can say, durham is at the cusp. When I say durham, i am not talking about the metropolitan area or even durham in coglomeration with chapel hill. I am talking about the once deemed armpit of the triangle that just ranked in the top 10 places to live according to us news without the help of raleigh. In 5 years, durham will be the place to be culturally, which is all that matters. I ask a serious question.

what is raleigh really contributing to the triangle?

If the answer to this is "a clean, sleak sky line" then you must dig deeper. First and foremost, at this point, within the last 2 years, Raleigh has not made the strides that durham, yes that prodominently black city, is making. This of course goes as far as culture, which quite frankly is what people really need to look at. Just look at durham 6 years ago, and now look at it today. When people compare durham to raleigh in all honesty they are being a bit too modest. I am looking at durham compared to austin, or seattle. Raleigh is a great city, but at this point it is not even competing with durham so why compare it to charlotte which could possibly compete with seattle.

I ask you this...

What sort of scene is there in Raleigh?

You people probably can't answer that. In durham, there is a definitive culture whether it revolves around the durham bulls (bull durham the movie, how many movies have been filmed in raleigh), tobacco warehouses, or black wall street. Durham is simply outshining raleigh's pristine, bland image at this point.

Alot of people ask, "is this durham's time to gloat?"

Quite frankly, yes. Soooo until raleigh stack up as far as the cultural accolades, which is what matters most, can you all do me a favor, and stop lumping raleigh with durham.

P.S. Most of RTP is in Durham. So is one of the top hospitals in the country and one of the top schools. NC States not a top tier imo.

I may need to check out Durham to see what they have to offer. Although I haven't been to Raleigh or Durham in years, I am a bit tired of all of this HYPE that Raleigh gets. To me, I think that Raleigh is a bit overrated and I like Charlotte a lot more. To me, the only people that like Raleigh are the folks @ Forbes Magazine. Raleigh isn't even in Charlotte's league, I would much rather prefer a city that has a more urban feel and is continuously adding to that urban fabric than a city that still building more sprawl. I know Charlotte still sprawls, but they're doing a much better job of trying to contain sprawl whereas Raleigh is still sprawling out of control, and until Raleigh finally starts getting light-rail, it'll continue to be that way.

[North_Raleigh_Guy]

Originally Posted by prwfromnc

I know Charlotte still sprawls, but they're doing a much better job of trying to contain sprawl

Could you elaborate. Surely you must be speaking of something other than the light rail. If you think the light rail will curb sprawl then I suggest you do a little more digging. Don't get me wrong. I think the light rail is great and it does promote urban density, but that is not stopping the continued sprawl of Charlotte. Not at all. The sprawl continues despite the light rail becuase you still have a large portion of the population not interested in living in an urban environment.

So how is Charlotte controlling sprawl? It does not seem all that evident to most. I would say Raleigh and Charlotte both suffer from sprawl.

Disclaimer: I really like Charlotte and Raleigh.