Raleigh vs Charlotte - what are neighborhoods you'd recommend? (Greensboro: middle-class, transplants)

[thisguy]

Hello, first of all I am very glad to have found this website; I was going to post a request for help/advice in craigslist but these message boards seem to do the trick.

Second, thanks for reading my long winded request here. Some quick background - I am not moving anytime soon - looking 2-3 years out (I like to do research well ahead of time!), grew up my whole life in Michigan (early 30s now) and after reading these boards for the past 2 days I can see a lot of people similar to me are fleeing the area. One for weather, two for economy. I have read some very interesting commentary on North Carolina on here, much of which I would of never thought of and it made me think about a lot of things (especially on the culture and how we take for granted in the northern bigger cities how you never think twice of all the different types of people you interact with every day)

In searching for a new home, I wanted nicer weather than the Midwest but not 90s or 100s half the year (i.e. FL, TX or most of CA), good economy, nice sized city (doesnt have to be huge but nice sized towns, big enough to host sports, some cultural diversity, etc), reasonable affordability

The affordibility issue knocked out my 2 first choices, San Diego & northern Virginia and leaves me with NC and Atlanta (both seem to have similar weather).. so learning about these areas as we speak.

I have read good things about NC in these "best places to live" and Virginia and NC are the 5th and 6th fastest growing states (after CA, FL, TX, AZ) since 2000, so they must be doing something right.

So anyhow for those in NC, I'd like to ask some questions - and yes I plan to go down to these cities sometime in the next year or two to visit, look around and get a feel but if I could ask or you could correct me on my assumptions below, and let me know what recommendations you might have for a person, early/mid 30s, single, doesn't go downtown to "party" but wants the culture, interests, (relatively) open minded people, good mix of professionals - i.e. I mean teachers, accountants, IT people, not "executives", etc.

First, I need a city with some good sized employers because I work in finance and in corporate finance hence companies of medium size usually have my job type. So this eliminates 90% of the cities in the USA right off the bat. Looking at the job websites, Charlotte seems to have more of these over Raleigh/Durham area but both did have a good # of these type of jobs. These 2 areas seem to be the "big 2" in NC, and I guess maybe Greensboro would be a distant 3rd in terms of bigger sized companies... so I focused on the former 2 cities.

Second, the college sports are obviously big in R/D area and pro sports in Charlotte. This might seem like a small point, but just as an activity and thing to do, having a city with these things and its part of the culture is something I am used to and enjoy. We have 4 major pro sports in Detroit and lots of colleges too, so its part of you.

Some sort of downtown as mentioned above, good places to eat, hang out, visit. Does one city have it over the other or are they both pretty close (I am "lumping Durham with Raleigh as I don't know enough about them right now to differentiate)

Some sort of outdoor life where you can either in the city or drive within an hour and get to nature and hike or bike or get on a river/lake, etc.

I read a lot about the attitude towards northerners and I guess I should ask not where is the most liberal but maybe where is the most independent? Or not frowned upon if you are not Mr. Church? I generally get along with people, but I am of the mind let everyone live their own life and as long as it doesn't hurt me, I don't really care what other people do, and want to be in an area where others "think" the same. So some of the comments I read on this forum sort of scare me in terms of "judgemental" views in the state - however my belief is as these cities draw in more people from other states, they will generally grow with a more liberal open viewpoint as people from other parts of the country bring these views with them (just a thought)

See reply to this post for continuation of my post (I can only do 5000 characters in each post!)

[thisguy]

Almost done....

Good housing costs/some land to live on/professionals - but not the "elite snob" type - what neighborhoods do these type of people live in, in both cities? I live currently in a mix of a blue collar/professional town (say 30% blue/70% white) with many single people and young families along with a mix of people who have lived in the town for 30 years so its a good mix, and lots of different cultures and people (which I know is more a characteristic of the north than the south), but something somewhat close to this would be preferred. I would like some small tract of land I have 2 dogs, like to garden, and have green space both in my yard and in the neighborhood. Would like a place you could have a family but you would not feel out of place being single. I assume a $175-$225K house would not exclude you from most neighborhoods in either of these cities. Thats about my range as I'm single and my job affords me that level at most, so any neighborhood/town well above that please don't include into any recommendations. I prefer not to live in "cookie cutter" neighborhoods where EVERY house looks exactly the same but I understand most new developments are like that in probably most of the country - I do like some character, and if its the type of neighborhood you could actually walk around and get to a few places (instead of driving) that would be a bonus (not a requirement). I don't want to be in the actual downtown because, as I said, I like green space and yard, but want to be relatively close.

Again the above paragraph doesnt mean I need each and every quality but thats the sort of neighborhood that would be perfect and if a neighborhood/town has 80% of these qualities that would be what I'd be looking for.

I think housing costs are VERY good in this part of the country and another question is, why hasn't there been any boom in prices (that I can tell) in NC big cities like in many other parts of the country? It seems a nice place to live and lots of people are moving there but houses are still pretty good shape in terms of price. I was shocked to see prices so low as compared to some other "hot spots".

So with all the background, and the associated questions, I am looking for recommendations on what neighborhoods one would say to explore in both these cities, and what major differences or characteristics one city has over for the other? Or is Raleigh very interchangeable with Charlotte and the best thing to do is just go there and move to the one where you get the job. My plan is to rent for a year and then when I know the city better pick a spot for a true home.

I am sure I forgot something but thanks for reading this massive novel, and thanks in advance for any responses.

[ITChick]

Just want to say "Hey" from another Midwesterner.

Wish I could answer all your questions but I'll leave it to someone else who actually lives in NC now.

What I've learned from spending time on this board so far:
Raleigh is a college town area. Good for IT work. Closer to Wilmington which is a beach area than traveling from Charlotte.

Charlotte is good if you're in the Banking or Finance fields. More of a big city feel than Raleigh.

I'm from Chicago and I'm looking at moving towards Charlotte as I don't want to be in a rural or suburban subdivision area. I too like the unique homes and not the cookie cutter ones so I'm guessing that the older areas of Charlotte and Raleigh will have that.

Anyone can jump in here and correct me or add to this.

[RaleighRob]

I'll try to address some of your issues, as an NC native. I was born & raised in Winston-Salem, but moved to Raleigh for a better life. One might assume that I might be biased towards Raleigh & away from Charlotte....but I did CHOOSE Raleigh over Charlotte for many reasons afterall.

Originally Posted by thisguy

wants the culture, interests, (relatively) open minded people, good mix of professionals - i.e. I mean teachers, accountants, IT people, not "executives", etc.

This is an area that the Triangle (Raleigh/Durham/ChapelHill) has a big advantage over Charlotte, in my opinion. Four big universities (NCSU, UNC-CH, Duke, & NCCU) plus numerous smaller colleges gives you a big influx of culture, teachers, open-minded people, and all that stuff. Plus Raleigh is the state capital, complete with fantastic museums.

First, I need a city with some good sized employers because I work in finance and in corporate finance hence companies of medium size usually have my job type.

Honestly, Charlotte has had the advantage in this sector historically, while the Triangle has been more geared towards IT, technology, pharmaceuticals, biological research, etc. However--the number of banks and financial corporations that have moved into the Triangle cities (particularly in the revitalized downtowns of Raleigh & Durham) have surged up drastically in the past decade. It is definitely worth doing job hunting in that arena here now.

Second, the college sports are obviously big in R/D area and pro sports in Charlotte. This might seem like a small point, but just as an activity and thing to do, having a city with these things and its part of the culture is something I am used to and enjoy. We have 4 major pro sports in Detroit and lots of colleges too, so its part of you.

Charlotte has major league football and basketball. The Triangle has tons of big-name college football & basketball teams. We also have a Hockey team (Hurricanes) that won the Stanley Cup. Also, one of the country's most famous minor-league baseball teams, the Durham Bulls, are here. I think there's more than enough for sports fanatics to enjoy here.

Some sort of downtown as mentioned above, good places to eat, hang out, visit.

Here, we have a major advantage. Charlotte is one city with one downtown. The Triangle is three cities, with three downtowns, all within half an hour from each other! Lots of great eating, nightlife, shopping, galleries, that sort of thing.

Some sort of outdoor life where you can either in the city or drive within an hour and get to nature and hike or bike or get on a river/lake, etc.

One of NC's largest state parks, Umstead, is right in between Raleigh and Durham. Add to that Jordan Lake, Falls Lake, Eno River. And that's just the state parks...I can't even begin to list the county and city parks!

I read a lot about the attitude towards northerners and I guess I should ask not where is the most liberal but maybe where is the most independent? Or not frowned upon if you are not Mr. Church?

This is a very good question. The answer is probably less "Raleigh vs Charlotte"---and more "city vs suburbs". The latter tends to show more of those negative attitudes that you mention. I always recommend anyone moving to NC from outside the south to try their hardest to live near the urban cores or downtown areas of whichever city they choose. The closer to that, the more "liberal" or "independent" (as you say) the community will be, and less you'll have to worry about being frowned upon for not being "Mr Church". (That name gave me a good laugh, by the way.) At least here in the Triangle, the city-dwellers absolutely LOVE the northerners who move here.

[thisguy]

Thanks for that detailed answer. My favorite city here in MI (Detroit suburbs) is Ann Arbor which is a college town - its big, has a lot of non automotive type companies, is eclectic (i.e. you won't find an Ethophian restuarant in many different places of MI!), and heck probably QUITE liberal (more than I would ever be) but again it doesn't bother me. So the idea of college towns around is cool. It is 1 hour outside Detroit so not a true suburb though.

As for the job front, I did notice Charlotte had the big name companies: Wachovia, Bank of America in the banks, etc and some bigger companies in other industries, whereas there was more diversity of the type of companies in Raleigh-Durham, not necessarily name recognition but the same type of jobs were available there in smaller companies (not small overall, but smaller names than "brand names" in Charlotte) It doesn't matter to me as my field applies to any industry, I just went to Monster and basically searched for "how many" finance jobs and both came back relatively close.

Let me ask, what are the inner suburbs like in these towns? i.e. you said be closest to the urban core as possible for "what I was looking for". So if you think of a city surrounded by rings, the first ring would be closest to the core and I'd consider an inner suburb, and so on and so forth out. Are these inner rings their own towns or all a part of either say Raleigh or Charlotte (i.e. I don't know how the distances work)

In Michigan you have Detrout and then every 6 miles out from the center of the city of Detroit is a new "city", so I don't know if thst is how it is in NC or if these municipalities are all considered "Raleigh" or "Charlotte" for example. And if they are separate entities, what are some names of towns you look like? Thanks

[Bethanytedder]

I am a North Carolina native as well. And I see you didn't mention anything about the coastal dangers of hurricanes. And I feel that to be totally honest in making a decision that you need to know what is lurking in the waters for half the year from June 1st to November 30th which is offically known as hurricane season. Raleigh, Asheville, Charlotte, Greensboro, Winston-Salem and Wilmington are all good choices. Although Wilmington has one strike against it and that is the possiblities of multiple hits from Atlantic Ocean hurricanes during the season. From July 1996-September 1999, the Wilmington area and points north were struck by Bertha, a cat. 2 I believe, Fran a cat. 3, Bonnie a cat. 1, Dennis came ashore in mid August as a Cat. 1 hurricane, went out to sea and did a loop-de-loop and struck the eastern area further north than Wilmington again on August 30, 1999 as a tropical storm. That set up a stage for the flooding that came with Cat. 1 or 2 Floyd some two weeks later. Floyd in itself was not that big of a wind maker off the immediate coast (I live in Greene County some 50 miles from the Pamlico Sound region and and about 90 miles from Wilmington) but with the heavy rains that accompanied Dennis, Floyd flooded the entire coastal region of North Carolina with heartbreaking results. I believe 52 people died in the state and there was millions of dollars in damage from minor to losing everything one had right down to the last wash cloth. We personally were very lucky. We did not flood. But I had to take my husband to the stoplight some 1/2 mile away and watch him wade out to a waiting rowing boat to row into work. Not that is an experience let me tell you. So before you decide you should know the facts of where you coming to. We are now in a very active hurricane phase. Which means that the storms are more frequent and they seem to be stronger and do a lot more damage than they did 20 years ago. This phase is expected to last another 20-25 years. So before you bank your entire furture on a place know this, Raleigh was not immuned from Floyd and the 1996 storm Fran. Although Raleigh is a good 200 miles probably from the actual coast, damage during Fran in particular was nearly as bad as it was where I come from some 90 miles to the east of Raleigh. Even the more western regions are not immuned either. The storms that hit Florida in 2004 took a really wide sweep and came further inland after hitting the more southern areas and as a result areas like Asheville and Winston-Salem and even further westward took amazing hits that they had probably never expected or would prepared for. The coastal area is beautiful but there is an art to living here. You have to be prepared and if they tell you to leave, you get your insurance papers, some proof of residency (you will need it to return after the storm) and your family and get the heck out. They don't issue warnings for people to sit back and think, "Hey, I was here during Hazel (1954) and it can't get that bad." It can and eventually it will and most hurricanes have a "personality" all their own. Just because a storm of the same Cat. didn't affect you directly one time, doesn't mean the next one won't. It depends on several factors, where it actually hits, preceeding rainfall amounts, the size of the storm itself and the wind field. The eye location is the only thing that the weather channel will us to plot the actual landfall when in reality someone miles away can be affected adversally as well. New Orleans is a case in point. Katrina didn't make a direct landfall to New Orleans. She hit further east. Yet look at New Orleans today.
So in considering all the above things you have mentioned, I would consider Charlotte and Raleigh at least two places that you should look at. After that if you love the beach and thing you can handle it Wilmington, Asheville is probably a very diverse area. If you love the mountains, Asheville is a wonderful place to settle in. Good luck and you can PM me if you have any more questions.

[RaleighRob]

Originally Posted by thisguy

My favorite city here in MI (Detroit suburbs) is Ann Arbor which is a college town - its big, has a lot of non automotive type companies, is eclectic (i.e. you won't find an Ethophian restuarant in many different places of MI!), and heck probably QUITE liberal (more than I would ever be) but again it doesn't bother me. So the idea of college towns around is cool.

That would be the Triangle's benefit over Charlotte, for sure. Chapel Hill in particular is often compared to Ann Arbor. But Durham and Raleigh are also heavily college-influenced...and a tad more affordable.

As for the job front, I did notice Charlotte had the big name companies: Wachovia, Bank of America in the banks, etc and some bigger companies in other industries, whereas there was more diversity of the type of companies in Raleigh-Durham, not necessarily name recognition but the same type of jobs were available there in smaller companies (not small overall, but smaller names than "brand names" in Charlotte)

Yeah, Charlotte's historically had the big name banks. Raleigh's getting more, though....BB&T and a big Wachovia presense...but also a new Capital Bank HQ, and RBC Centura is breaking ground on their big new office tower downtown. In addition, Durham has SunTrust.

Let me ask, what are the inner suburbs like in these towns? i.e. you said be closest to the urban core as possible for "what I was looking for". So if you think of a city surrounded by rings, the first ring would be closest to the core and I'd consider an inner suburb, and so on and so forth out. Are these inner rings their own towns or all a part of either say Raleigh or Charlotte (i.e. I don't know how the distances work)

It's not quite that way around here yet. Our biggest cities are no where near as urban yet as the ones up North. You have your urban, downtown cores, tightly packed...then it gradually becomes suburban moving out from it. Raleigh literally has middle-class single-family housing neighborhoods on all sides of it's downtown...as does Durham & Chapel Hill. It's sort of the way southern cities have evolved. So instead of "rings" think of it as a more gradual transition. So the closer you are to the core, the more "eclectic" (using your phrase) the surrounding community will be...and the further out, the more generically suburban.
You should consider first where you'd get a job. If you chose the Triangle over Charlotte, and for example, found a job in Durham, then it'd make more sense to live there, than to deal with rush-hour commutes from Raleigh or Chapel Hill. (I only travel between the three cities on nights & weekends for dining/shopping/visiting friends....when there's little traffic.)

[thisguy]

After I posted my response to you I went to a website (don't know if I can say a website names on this forum) but its the one with all the national mls listings and pulled up a map of Raleigh in particular just to get an idea of a close in map. I used Raleigh since that is the biggest, and there are "mini towns" (as best as I can tell from the website) whereas Chapel Hill seems to be mainly 2 towns - Chapel Hill & Hillsborough (I assume Hillsborough being the more old fashioned part of town and more conservative) and Durham when I look at the website is broken into about 20 pieces of Durham as opposed to different names towns, hence Raleigh is easier to break into pieces.

So focusing on Raleigh I know Cary is the "hot" market right now because everything I read about Raleigh has to talk about Cary, but if I look at the ring around Raleigh I see Cary/Apex to west, Wake Forest to the north, Knightdale to the east and Garner to the south.

So 2 questions, putting aside economic differences of the "towns" that ring Raleigh, is the 'attitude' we spoke about pretty much the same in each of these towns, or do they all have their different mixes? And 2nd, are these all "suburb towns" self contained or is all the shopping/movies/entertainment in the downtown of Raleigh itself. Again, sorry for these inane questions that I would know after spending 4 hours in the town, but just trying to get a feel for these cities. In metro Detroit you can barely tell where one "town" starts and the next begins as they are all one big "splattering" of suburbia, and aside from signs saying you are entering the next town it all "looks" the same and feels the same with the same strip malls and same Lowes, Home Depot, Walmart, Target, in just about every "town".

I also went to both Charlotte and Raleigh and just started looking at what type of house you can get for $160K (value of my house here) in both areas and was shocked to see how much house you can get down there. (about double what you get here!) Granted I don't know the neighborhoods but my first impression was Charlotte has even cheaper prices than Raleigh area (although both cheap compared to anything up here), and its all newer constructions 1995 and younger. And I don't come from a high end real estate state, so I can only imagine what those people from NJ, NY, CA etc must think!

Totally agree with you on finding the job and then finding a city - hence it makes sense to rent the first 6 months to a year (even though its a hassle to move 2x) before buying. At this point trying to just learn the different areas from afar.

Also as an aside interesting that NHL Hurricanes located to Raleigh and not Charlotte? The owner is from MI, his company is based on downtown detroit and hockey is big here I never paid much attention until looking into these cities...before it was just "Carolina is Carolina"

[RaleighRob]

Originally Posted by thisguy

After I posted my response to you I went to a website (don't know if I can say a website names on this forum) but its the one with all the national mls listings and pulled up a map of Raleigh in particular just to get an idea of a close in map. I used Raleigh since that is the biggest, and there are "mini towns" (as best as I can tell from the website) whereas Chapel Hill seems to be mainly 2 towns - Chapel Hill & Hillsborough (I assume Hillsborough being the more old fashioned part of town and more conservative) and Durham when I look at the website is broken into about 20 pieces of Durham as opposed to different names towns, hence Raleigh is easier to break into pieces.

Hillsborough is about 20 min north of Chapel Hill/Carrboro and 15 min west of Durham. I guess they put it in the same category as Chapel Hill because it's in the same county. (You can say it's a suburb of them, in the technical sense of the word.)
If you're unfamilar with the Cities of the Triangle in relation to each other, try this map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map_of_the_Triangle It's letter-coded, but the best I could find online.
I don't know what "pieces" of Raleigh and Durham the site you're looking at broke them down into...perhaps neighborhoods?

So focusing on Raleigh I know Cary is the "hot" market right now because everything I read about Raleigh has to talk about Cary, but if I look at the ring around Raleigh I see Cary/Apex to west, Wake Forest to the north, Knightdale to the east and Garner to the south.

Cary is a suburb of Raleigh like those other towns are. I guess it gets more PR coverage due to it being the largest and richest of them.

So 2 questions, putting aside economic differences of the "towns" that ring Raleigh, is the 'attitude' we spoke about pretty much the same in each of these towns, or do they all have their different mixes?

That kinda goes back to what I was saying in the previous two posts...the further from the urban cores of the big 3 (ral, dur, ch), the more suburban it gets, and the more conservative it gets. (Which is also the case for Charlotte, too, since I know you're still considering it as well.)

And 2nd, are these all "suburb towns" self contained or is all the shopping/movies/entertainment in the downtown of Raleigh itself.

Well, sorta. I mean, they have stores, restaurants, etc. Just fewer and less diverse amount. A strip shopping center in Cary or Garner is not gonna have the same places as a "funky" historical market area of downtown Raleigh or Durham. The suburbs tend to attract chains mostly, both in dining and shopping arenas. (The one big exception, I think, would be Carrboro...often considered a suburb of Chapel Hill, it's really more of a "mini city" in it's own right. Its downtown is adjoined to the side of Chapel Hill's downtown...which is kinda odd & cool at the same time.)

Totally agree with you on finding the job and then finding a city - hence it makes sense to rent the first 6 months to a year (even though its a hassle to move 2x) before buying. At this point trying to just learn the different areas from afar.

Glad to hear you say that. I'm constantly amazed at the number of people who visit this forum, talking about picking a house and neighborhood as the FIRST thing they do...before they've really gotten to know the area...sometimes before even getting a job! I could never fathom doing such a thing.

Also as an aside interesting that NHL Hurricanes located to Raleigh and not Charlotte? The owner is from MI, his company is based on downtown detroit and hockey is big here I never paid much attention until looking into these cities...before it was just "Carolina is Carolina"

Yeah..."Carolina" is such a generic term. I think it's a bit over-used as far as sports teams go, but they're going for wider audiences. I think Raleigh got the hockey team since the Triangle has more northerner transplants, and it's a sport they tend to like alot.
It's kinda funny they share their arena with NCSU's basketball team....mixing a very NC sport (college basketball) with a very northern sport (hockey). A very good metaphor for this city really.

[thisguy]

Finding good maps at the local level is a pain online for any state/city/region! mapquest is good if you are looking for an address but to get a more geographical look at a higher level not much is out there.

I used realtor.com [mod cut]
When you go there, you search by maps function, and when you get to north carolina it splits it into 3 main regions, west, coastal and in the middle is piedmont where the 2 major urban areas are. Then you can narrow it down further and thats how I got my "splits" of the areas and cities.

Just looked at flights and its reasonable, $250 or so from Detroit to either Charlotte or Raleigh. Nowadays that is about 5 fillups of gas tank so not too bad!

I just read a CNN article about a week ago how in the past people got jobs first and then moved... now people move to where they want to go and then find jobs (by people I mean people with less responsbilities i.e. younger single types), so that seems to be the trend in increasingly mobile America. However, a house has big costs associated with buying and selling so I don't know how you buy a house without living in the area for at least 6 months to get at least some flavor.