Better Skyline? (Charlotte, Raleigh, Cary: houses, stats, stadium)

[the 7 oh 4]

And if you go to Wikipedia.com and type in "List of Tallest Buildings in Charlotte" ...it states there are about 17 additional high rises under construction, approved & proposed for Charlotte.

[rnc2mbfl]

[quote=metro.m;6349139]
....
Virginia Beach 1.39 million (This is not a tall city as well)
Richmond 818,000
Charlotte 758,000
QUOTE]

Virginia Beach is 1.39 million???
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.....
Richmond is 818,000????
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!

The city of Richmond has a population of about 200,000 as of 2007 and the 4 independent cities + the 10....yes TEN counties that make up the greater Richmond/Petersburg metro area bring that population to about 1.225 million.

Virginia Beach has a population of about 440,000 at almost 250 square miles of land in its city limits....again as much is water. That's a lot of land for only 440,000 residents. The seven county and nine city metro area in VA and NC has a population of about 1.66 million.

I am no huge fan of Charlotte but this comparison is a joke. The city of Charlotte is over 700,000 in the city limits alone within 280 square miles. The 6 county Charlotte metro area has over 1.7 million people. The larger (13 county) combined metro area has almost 2.2 million.

If you are going to be fair, you'll compare city to city and metro to metro and not cherry pick stats to make one place look more impressive than another.

[urbancharlotte]

^^^^Thanks for clearing that up!!! Hopefully, Charlotte will have 2 million people within those 280 sq/miles like a real city some day. In the last photo that I posted, you can clearly see that there is a REAL effort to bring more density into the entire center city (not just uptown).

Also on that last photo (just outside of the photo's scope to the left) there is a very nice and growing condo/apartment row. This is in the South End area. The 22 story Arlington, 11 story Ashton, and a few other low to midrises are actually missing from that aerial photo. I can't find a complete aerial photo of uptown and South End in the same shot, but I have seen it in person from Carolina's Medical Center. The low/mid/high rise range of the buildings from South End to Uptown is nearly two miles long. It certainly isn't on par with NYC or Atlanta, but it is a nice start for a NC city!!!

[rnc2mbfl]

Originally Posted by urbancharlotte

^^^^Thanks for clearing that up!!! Hopefully, Charlotte will have 2 million people within those 280 sq/miles like a real city some day. In the last photo that I posted, you can clearly see that there is a REAL effort to bring more density into the entire center city (not just uptown).

Also on that last photo (just outside of the photo's scope to the left) there is a very nice and growing condo/apartment row. This is in the South End area. The 22 story Arlington, 11 story Ashton, and a few other low to midrises are actually missing from that aerial photo. I can't find a complete aerial photo of uptown and South End in the same shot, but I have seen it in person from Carolina's Medical Center. The low/mid/high rise range of the buildings from South End to Uptown is nearly two miles long. It certainly isn't on par with NYC or Atlanta, but it is a nice start for a NC city!!!

Don't hold your breath on that. There isn't a single city in NC that will have that sort of density anytime soon....not that I wouldn't like to see it happen.
Let me give you a comparison with one of my favorite cities: Paris.

Paris at ~ 2.2 million sits on 33.6 square miles. That's over 64,000 people per square mile.
Cary, NC at ~ 134,000 sits on 42.1 square miles. That's about 2250 people per square mile. (I had to put Cary in this comparison because it's physically larger than Paris in land mass. Shocking, huh?)
Charlotte at ~700,000 sits on 280 square miles. That's about 2500 people per square mile. (Charlotte's land mass is over 8 times larger than Paris)
Raleigh at ~385,000 sits on 115.6 square miles. That's about 3288 people per square mile. (Raleigh's land mass is almost 3.5 times larger than Paris)

To get to 2 million in the city limits without expanding them physically, Charlotte would have to get to 7142 people per square mile. I just don't see Charlotte almost triple its density. There's just way too much individually owned single family housing on suburban sized lots in the city limits to make that happen.

Here are some densities of more typical urban US cities:

DC: 9639 people/sq mile
NYC: 27,147 people/sq mile
San Francisco: 17,323 people/sq mile
Chicago: 12,649 people/sq mile
Miami: 11,463 people/sq mile (land area only)

Even Portland, which is often held up as the model for restricting sprawl, is only 4,288 people/sq mile. Being a newer city, I think Portland should be the benchmark for what NC cities might achieve. Using their metric, Charlotte could set a goal of holding the line on its city limits and grow to about 1.2 million. If Raleigh held its much smaller city limits, it could grow to almost 500,000. I think these are much more realistic goals for both Charlotte and Raleigh. I think that Raleigh would have an easier time meeting its goal because it's already more densely populated in the city limits than Charlotte.

[urbancharlotte]

^^^^^^I love the numbers, but I am already well aware of the densities of most cities in the World. As a matter of fact, Raleigh actually has 142 sq/miles of land due to recent annexations to the city's north and west sides (into Durham county).


Photo Taken by James Willamor

In the above photo, the effort to increase Charlotte's center city density is evident. You bring up a GREAT point in your Paris example. A city can easily house over one million residents in under 50 sq/miles of land if the city is designed properly. The low to midrise condos and apartments you see in this photo would yeild a density of over 20,000 people per sq/mile if these structures were much more abundant around the center city. Granted, it would take YEARS for Charlotte to reach 2 million strong without any more annexations, but the effort is slowly underway.

Outside of Charlotte's center, single family homes will rein. However, if the city has a 50 sq/mi center with nearly 500,000 people or better, that would be something. Again, we are still talking years down the road LOL!!!

The current goal of the city is to bring uptown's population to 100,000 by 2030. The current population of uptown is around 13,000. Uptown's zip code of 28202 is currently 6,000 people per sq/mile. If and when uptown reaches a population of 100,000; that would be a density of nearly 60,000 people per sq/mile (little Paris LOL!!!).

Personally, when I see aerial shots of Charlotte, I can't help but speculate about the future of this city (good or bad). Nobody knows for sure what Charlotte might become in the next 30 years. Chances are it will resemble present day Atlanta more than it will present day Paris. However, it is nice to think that uptown will become a 'mini-Paris' that sits in the middle of sprawl-topia.

[rnc2mbfl]

Originally Posted by urbancharlotte

^^^^^^I love the numbers, but I am already well aware of the densities of most cities in the World. As a matter of fact, Raleigh actually has 142 sq/miles of land due to recent annexations to the city's north and west sides (into Durham county).


Photo Taken by James Willamor

In the above photo, the effort to increase Charlotte's center city density is evident. You bring up a GREAT point in your Paris example. A city can easily house over one million residents in under 50 sq/miles of land if the city is designed properly. The low to midrise condos and apartments you see in this photo would yeild a density of over 20,000 people per sq/mile if these structures were much more abundant around the center city. Granted, it would take YEARS for Charlotte to reach 2 million strong without any more annexations, but the effort is slowly underway.

Outside of Charlotte's center, single family homes will rein. However, if the city has a 50 sq/mi center with nearly 500,000 people or better, that would be something. Again, we are still talking years down the road LOL!!!

The current goal of the city is to bring uptown's population to 100,000 by 2030. The current population of uptown is around 13,000. Uptown's zip code of 28202 is currently 6,000 people per sq/mile. If and when uptown reaches a population of 100,000; that would be a density of nearly 60,000 people per sq/mile (little Paris LOL!!!).

Personally, when I see aerial shots of Charlotte, I can't help but speculate about the future of this city (good or bad). Nobody knows for sure what Charlotte might become in the next 30 years. Chances are it will resemble present day Atlanta more than it will present day Paris. However, it is nice to think that uptown will become a 'mini-Paris' that sits in the middle of sprawl-topia.

No North Carolina cities will ever resemble Paris for a variety of reasons. The only city in the US that successfully mimics How Paris was developed is DC. It's no coincidence that DC was planned by a Frenchman.

What NC cities can do as they grow is plan for more urban neighborhoods of dense midrise buildings where the emphasis is on a human scale walkable environment. Frankly, I get more excited about the possibility of dense neighborhoods of midrise housing and mixed use than I do skyscrapers. That's not to say that high rises don't have their place. I just think that the core of urban neighborhoods is lower rise and human scaled. When I think of successful models of this sort of planning, I think of Chicago with its numerous urban neighborhoods with identifiable characteristics and personalities. Of course, NYC also has vast amounts of these lower rise urban neighborhoods too.
Miami Beach's "South Beach" is a good example of an urban neighborhood that mixes development strategies. This stretch of 23 blocks at the widest point (little over a mile wide) of Miami Beach represents a terrific mix of high rises along the waterfront with the majority of the the land densely developed with low and midrise multifamily/commerical and even a precious few single family homes. Of course, there's also the art deco angle to the city that brings it its architectural charm. I'd even argue that Miami Beach has a better skyline than Charlotte. There are numerous highrises that are mostly condos but some hotel as well. The number of 20+ story structures in Miami Beach alone is in the many dozens. While there aren't any 70 story buildings in Miami Beach, there are many, many over 40 floors. And, while these buildings are quite impressive in their own rights, it's the low rise fabric of the urban neighborhoods that intoxicate people into loving South Beach.

Regarding Raleigh, even with your updated land size of the city, it's still more densely populated than Charlotte. From the Charlotte's own web page:
Charlotte Quick Facts
Charlotte has 651,101 people over 280.5 square miles for 2321 per/sq mile.
If this info has been updated somewhere else, I'd be interested to know.
Are there updates to any Charlotte info. that confirms the 700,000+ numbers I see tossed around in various places? Has the city limits grown as well?
City of Raleigh | Raleigh Demographics
The city of Raleigh (according to the city's website) has almost 141 square miles. At 385,000 people, that's 2730 per/sq mile. I think Raleigh benefits from being hemmed in by various suburban neighbors like Cary to the W/SW, Holly Springs to the SW, Garner to the South, Knighdale to the East, Wake Forest to the NE and Morrisville to the NW. Also, the city of Raleigh has a giant state park in its city limits. Umstead State Park is 9 square miles of no residents at all.
I say that Raleigh benefits from these neighbors because they prevent the city from only expanding its city limits to increase its tax base in the future. The city is going to have to become more dense to grow. While Wake County will soon be the most populated county in the state, the City of Raleigh will probably never be more than 45-50% of that population.

[urbancharlotte]

You could never tell that Raleigh is denser by looking at it in a photo or seeing it in person. The reason for this is because Charlotte's density is lowered by vast low density areas west of I-77 and north of I-85 (areas barely above 1,500 people per sq/mi). The only corridor in Raleigh that I am aware of with a halfway decent urban look and design is Hilsborough Street. And even that is still nothing like what I see in areas like South End and Dilworth.

To me, the South End area is on the verge of creating that dense urban look that many larger cities already have plenty of.

South End



Photos by James Willamor

These are a few recent pics of Charlotte's South End area. Like I said, it is not quite there yet in terms of being super urban, but it is a good start compared to the rest of the state.

[rnc2mbfl]

Originally Posted by urbancharlotte

You could never tell that Raleigh is denser by looking at it in a photo or seeing it in person. The reason for this is because Charlotte's density is lowered by vast low density areas west of I-77 and north of I-85 (areas barely above 1,500 people per sq/mi). The only corridor in Raleigh that I am aware of with a halfway decent urban look and design is Hilsborough Street. And even that is still nothing like what I see in areas like South End and Dilworth.

To me, the South End area is on the verge of creating that dense urban look that many larger cities already have plenty of.

South End



Photos by James Willamor

These are a few recent pics of Charlotte's South End area. Like I said, it is not quite there yet in terms of being super urban, but it is a good start compared to the rest of the state.

Raleigh's developing urban corridor is mostly in the Glenwood South area on the NW corner of downtown. This area is developing the way that South End is. In the last several years, several midrise/highrise housing projects have been completed including: 510 Glenwood, The Paramount, 222 Glenwood, West, The Quorum and 712 Tucker. 712 Tucker is rental while all the others are condos. These projects range from 7 floors to 17 floors. In the adjacent warehouse district to the South, there are now 3 midrise projects in a row flanking the district's Eastern edge. Those are: Park Devereaux, Hue and Dawson. The Hue is under construction and slated to open this Summer.
Glenwood South and The Warehouse District are both on the Western side of downtown and spill into Hillsborough St. near a collection of post war urban apartment buildings by St. Mary's College. From any one of the these new housing projects, one can walk to almost anywhere downtown or take the free hybrid circulator bus that runs daily in a loop downtown. Personally, I just walk to wherever I want to go as much as possible. From my condo in Glenwood South, I can walk to shopping, dining, bars, clubs, museums and performing arts in 15 minutes or less...most of it in much less than 15 minutes. From the top end of the Glenwood South neighbhorhood, one can walk to Cameron Village Shopping Center, Five Points and a collection of historic single family home neighborhoods.
Cameron Village itself is begining to toy with the idea of inserting high end, high density housing in its evirons. A significant midrise apartment complex and retail project near Oberlin and Wade Ave. has emerged just to Cameron Village's North. There are other projects on the drawing board for housing within the 6 city blocks that make up Cameron Village.
I'll have to take some photos of this all and post them here. But, to do so, I'll have to get a new camera. I lost mine!!

[urbancharlotte]

^^^^^^I am familiar with most of the areas you speak of. However, Glenwood South is considered a Downtown Raleigh location. South End is not in Charlotte's uptown. The reason why I mentioned Hillsborough Street is because it extends outside of Downtown westbound towards NCSU. Almost every city in NC has some form of urbanity inside of downtown, but few NC towns have urbanity outside of their downtowns. Up until recently, Charlotte had none outside of Uptown. That is changing fast.

Many condo projects have stalled, but many are still going strong.

Here are some more South End photos










thanx tozmervo, atlrvr and krazeeboi for images

The bottom photo shows the developing condo row along South Blvd. When the current projects are all finished, South End will have a two mile long condo row along the rail line. I am not aware of any non-downtown neighborhood in Raleigh being developed quite like this. I could be wrong, but the projects I have seen thus far in Raleigh just doesn't seem to take up multiple city blocks. Again, I would love to see some pics that prove me wrong, but I haven't had any luck finding them.

Eventough South End is at the forefront of Charlotte's non-uptown urban development, it is not alone. Dilworth, Noda (North Davidson), Elizabeth (the city is currently laying streetcar tracks in this area), Myers Park (in some places), and South Park (in some places) are moving more towards the urban side. There are more neighborhoods doing this than what I have mentioned, but the areas mentioned are at the forefront of this urban movement in Charlotte.

Only time will tell where this urban movement takes Charlotte in the future.

[rnc2mbfl]

Originally Posted by urbancharlotte

^^^^^^I am familiar with most of the areas you speak of. However, Glenwood South is considered a Downtown Raleigh location. South End is not in Charlotte's uptown. The reason why I mentioned Hillsborough Street is because it extends outside of Downtown westbound towards NCSU. Almost every city in NC has some form of urbanity inside of downtown, but few NC towns have urbanity outside of their downtowns. Up until recently, Charlotte had none outside of Uptown. That is changing fast.

Many condo projects have stalled, but many are still going strong.

Here are some more South End photos










thanx tozmervo, atlrvr and krazeeboi for images

The bottom photo shows the developing condo row along South Blvd. When the current projects are all finished, South End will have a two mile long condo row along the rail line. I am not aware of any non-downtown neighborhood in Raleigh being developed quite like this. I could be wrong, but the projects I have seen thus far in Raleigh just doesn't seem to take up multiple city blocks. Again, I would love to see some pics that prove me wrong, but I haven't had any luck finding them.

Eventough South End is at the forefront of Charlotte's non-uptown urban development, it is not alone. Dilworth, Noda (North Davidson), Elizabeth (the city is currently laying streetcar tracks in this area), Myers Park (in some places), and South Park (in some places) are moving more towards the urban side. There are more neighborhoods doing this than what I have mentioned, but the areas mentioned are at the forefront of this urban movement in Charlotte.

Only time will tell where this urban movement takes Charlotte in the future.

I am familiar with South End as I built my company's office there. I like that area a lot. I was one of the people pushing to put our office there instead of in some bland suburban office park. I totally get it.
It's important to realize that the histories of Charlotte and Raleigh contribute to each city's current urban development goals. In the case of Raleigh, it's important to realize that Raleigh was a very tiny place that was mostly a government town with education institutions until the last 40 years. And, when it did start to grow, almost all of the corporate development went to RTP between Raleigh and Durham. This left Raleigh's DT primarily a government center with very close adjacent neighborhoods. In the end, it's not such a bad thing since many charming neighborhoods remain intact. Raleigh simply does not have a vast amount of redevelopable old school areas outside the city core. What little is has is on the very edges of downtown. From there, these areas link to older neighborhoods where low rise infill projects create more opportunity for urbanization. And, you are correct that this moves generally toward the West (NC State area). But, it's important to realize that these areas don't have any specific boundary that says you are leaving DT proper. Unlike Charlotte, there isn't a downtown freeway encircling it and separating it from adjacent areas.
The most significant urbanization project happening in Raleigh outside the core is the continued re-development of "Midtown" at the former location of the North Hills Mall about 4 miles north of the city center. But, it's not a redevelopment of an historic district. It's a massive revisioning of a 1960s suburban retail area to include a mixed use of retail, entertainment, business and housing in a high density model. But, unlike what's happening in DT Raleigh or areas like South End in Charlotte, it's entirely brand new. The smattering of 70's era suburban buildings weren't worth saving.
Here are some photo links that might interest you:
http://www.indyweek.com/pdf/021109/NorthHills.jpg
http://assets.bizjournals.com/story_...9214-0-0-1.jpg
http://www.newraleigh.com/images/art..._hills_map.jpg
http://assets.bizjournals.com/story_...7515-0-0-1.jpg
http://www.powerdesigninc.us/photos/...hHillsEast.jpg
http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/pro...thHills-17.jpg
In the end, this is not a competition. Charlotte is doing what's best for its future and Raleigh is doing what's best for it. Both cities are in an enviable position as other cities are in decline across the country or choking on their bad decisions of the last 50 years.