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My wife and I are considering the Dakotas as a potential place to move.
What are some pros and cons of one over another?
We both like the outdoors: fishing, hiking, etc. I like to hunt as often as I can during the respective seasons. Our daughter does well in school, and I'm sure she would do well anywhere.
I understand SD does not have a state tax, while ND does.
We would like to live either in the suburbs or near a larger metro area for jobs and conveniences, but have the sanity of quiet living.
We are looking for more the way America used to be: friendly, hard-working people without attitudes; family-oriented; courteousness and civic-minded citizens; a place where one doesn't have to look over their shoulder for trouble if at the ATM or in a parking lot at night; baseball/softball games with hotdogs on a Saturday; neighbors that actually will lend a hand... the list could go on and on...
Cold is fine, as both states get cold. We would appreciate as close to four seasons as possible. The wife likes mountains, I prefer more open, rolling hills. We can do either, or both if that exists.
Maybe you don't understand what cold is. Cold is when your car won't start, even though it's been in a garage overnight. Cold is when you can't feel your fingers, even though you're wearing mittens that advertise -30F. Cold is when your storm door is covered with frost, and the sun is shining on it all day.
In addition to cold, you have be prepared for the kind of snowfall that most of ND experiences in the winter. Remember that cold? Sometimes, snowblowers won't start, and you have to shovel 2-4' of snow before you can leave the house or garage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scifiwestern
a place where one doesn't have to look over their shoulder for trouble if at the ATM or in a parking lot at night
Maybe we're not living in the same country, but fear-mongering from the media tells us we should be scared everywhere.
As far as "what America used to be", are you sure you aren't romanticizing the past? From my memory, and the information I've gathered from most other people in conversations, most of the things you describe were commonplace before people lost their confidence in themselves. You know, back before paid unemployment, social security, and welfare, when people had to work to survive. On those points, you'll find the population here is split: 10% verbally against free stuff
10% taking everything they can get
10% making decent use of the programs
70% that are completely ignorant of what's going on
Of course, those are estimates.
All in all, the population here is very much like the population in many of the other places that I know, except that this place is smeared very heavily with a thick coating of faux-Christianity.
I'm intimately familiar with the cold. Having lived in Northern Europe on the coast of the North Sea, I have a unique perspective on cold as well. I'm familiar with the snow drifts that are 10 feet high, the impassable roads, the black ice, the useless mittens/gloves, the cars that won't start.
There are still people and places in this great United States that are not fear mongering. There are still people who have self-confidence, self-reliance, etc.
Reading these boards, one can easily come to the conclusion that the residents of ND are somehow a little different than the rest of the country. It's like the people I know from Alaska tend to be much more self-sufficient than their lower 48 counterparts. The states that seem to stand out for rugged individualism are ND, SD, WY, MT, and AK. Again, reading and talking to people from these places seems to suggest a certain charm sadly lacking in most of the US now, but as I said, there still seem to be people and places that exhibit the good, old-fashioned sensibilities.
A lot of places seem to have so-called Christians who talk the talk but never walk the walk. Hypocrisy is everywhere you look and not just with Christians.
You seem to be somewhat disenchanted with ND. Do you or did you live there?
We're looking to move because we want four seasons, a real winter, hunting and fishing, and all the modern conveniences without the problems that plague most cities/areas. Again, I could be wrong, but I don't think what we are looking for is as elusive as you suggest.
Last edited by scifiwestern; 10-22-2010 at 07:41 AM..
We're looking to move because we want four seasons, a real winter, hunting and fishing, and all the modern conveniences without the problems that plague most cities/areas. Again, I could be wrong, but I don't think what we are looking for is as elusive as you suggest.
ND is close to what you'd like though I think where I am now would actually be an even better fit. ND does have 3 seasons and sometimes the ellusive spring will appear as well.
There is definitely a real winter in ND with snow cover for 4 months or so.
Hunting is available though your options are limited... most people go with Deer and Pheasant hunting. Bigger game is hard to find, water fowl can be done but not as easily, and there are some smaller things like wolves and foxes. I believe Montana (or Alaska as you mentioned) offers more variety in that respect.
Modern conveniences are going to be hard to come by simply because the discretionary spending isn't out there to pull it in. Sure, you'll get running water and indoor plumbing... but you aren't going to get Pro Sports teams, 3am delivery of Taiwanese food, theme parks, or other amenities some have grown to expect in these modern times. Even trying to buy luxury items will be a challenge when compared to larger areas.
As for your original post... there's not much for Hiking in ND outside of the Badlands (west side of ND/SD border) and those are no where near the bigger towns of ND.
While jobs are available, careers are near impossible to come by, especially in the small towns you seem to crave. I think you'll find the bigger 3 or 4 towns in ND a lot like the larger areas of the country in terms of attitude so you'd probably want to stay very small town and make a long commute.
But in the end, I agree with you... what you want isn't hard to find... I'm just not sure why you're making it out to be. I've lived in North Dakota, Minnesota, Michigan, North Jersey and South Jersey, and now in Utah... I have found exactly what you want in every place I have lived (except maybe the "real" winters). I'm a little surprised you've had such bad luck.
I'm a little curious what you believe you're getting extra in ND that you don't get in those other places... and I wonder if you realize what you're giving up.
We are looking for more the way America used to be: friendly, hard-working people without attitudes; family-oriented; courteousness and civic-minded citizens; There are still people who have self-confidence, self-reliance, etc.
I would offer that yes, for the most part, ND residents are mostly self-reliant and have a decent work ethic.
However, there are multiple facets here. ND residents have no compunction, and yes even have pride, in getting more aid from the Federal Government than they pay in taxes (just don't refer to farm subsidies as corporate welfare anytime where you could be overheard).
The concept of self-reliance and independence which does have valid roots in the homesteading experience has risen to the level of myth. Fierce independence and self-reliance (which has morphed into self-aggrandizement) has run amuck so that there is often no recognition of ever doing anything for the common good.
Thanks for your comments. I always appreciate honest dialog.
Maybe ND isn't what I think it could be. We're currenly living in Houston, TX, which is a dangerous sprawl of a city with people who could care less about anyone but themselves, and it shows. This place is exceedingly hot in the summer (hot from late March through October), humid to the point of being nasty, dangerous to the degree where you literally have to watch yourself and your property at all times. Driving here is an exercise in getting to know God much better through prayer. It takes literally hours to get anywhere around here -- the traffic is unholy. The illegal immigration is off the hook and getting worse all the time. The crime is only spreading out further into the 'burbs. The schools are not that good despite extreme marketing to convince people otherwise. I could go on.
I'm an optimist at heart, but places like Houston only serve to bring you down. We're tired of the rat race and want off the treadmill.
Leaving Houston means giving up nothing. The only modern conveniences we need are cable TV and a fast Internet connection. The rest, if anything else, is gravy. Our daughter will do well in school anywhere since she really digs learning. She makes friends very easily and is a happy-go-lucky little girl.
We simply want a nice city with some modern perks, honest, hard working friends and neighbors... you know what I'm saying... the American ideal, as elusive as it might be getting. You are right in that one can get these things anywhere if one looks hard enough, but the ruggedness of places like ND, SD, WY, MT, and AK has a certain charm that we've always wanted. Rugged places tend to breed rugged, hard-working individuals. I see this born out simply by leaving Houston and driving to see my parents who live in central Texas. The people there are hard-working, rugged individuals. But... Texas suffers from extreme heat, extreme illegal immigration issues, drug violence moving north at a rapid rate, a shifting political climate, jobs disappearing to illegal immigrants... you name it. The heat here is as bad as some people think the cold is up there. You simply cannot take off enough clothes. You are basically sticky all day what with the humidity. With the cold, you can at least layer properly. I'm running my AC right now otherwise I would be very uncomfortable.
We are considering a number of places, not just the Dakotas. We looked at WA state earlier in the year and actually went up there, but while it's beautiful up there (love the rain), the taxes will empty your wallet and the cost of living is outrageous. The Dakotas, MT, and WY seem to offer a balance of rugged individualism, lower cost of living, lower taxes, and relative safety in comparison to the rest of the states.
Again, I appreciate any info you would care to provide. The more info we get the better an informed decision we can make.
Since no one has mentioned SD, I take it there is not much difference between the two places? I know that sounds like a generalization, but terrain aside, is there that much difference between the two? Politically? Friendliness? Job opportunities?
Since no one has mentioned SD, I take it there is not much difference between the two places? I know that sounds like a generalization, but terrain aside, is there that much difference between the two? Politically? Friendliness? Job opportunities?
Thanks everyone!
There's not a lot of people that have lived in both and can give a fair assesment. Most would be going by what they heard and what they guess it is like.
I have lived in South Dakota, but never in North Dakota so I can't compare either.
If you have specific questions, you should probably ask them in the South Dakota Forum.
Again, I appreciate any info you would care to provide. The more info we get the better an informed decision we can make.
After a few months out here (and I know ChrisC will love this), I would add Utah to your list.
Once you get past the Mormon stigma, I've been extremely surprised by it. I can honestly say it was never on my "to live" or in my life plan, but stuff happens.
Due to the high birth rate, it is EXTREMELY family friendly. You will hear some horror stories about the family with 12 kids overwhelming AppleBees because they can't get them all to sit and behave but even eatting out 3 or 4 times a week like we do, we've yet to see it.
The classes are overcrowded and the teachers are poorly paid but they get results that would easily rival ND and have far more competitive sports teams for things like scholarships.
The geographical diversity is incredible from the desert of South Utah, through the Canyons, and up to the Mountains are SLC. For hunting, hiking, and camping there's just a lot more choice and opportunity than which flat chunk of ground you want to see in ND.
Crime is almost non-existant in the burbs... there are some sketchy areas but nothing that would compare to Houston or any "ghetto". There are some immigration issues but nothing like Texas or Arizona face.
The economy has faired much better than the majority of the country and there is the critical mass required to get big business into the SLC valley to the point careers are available to people.
Compared to ND, the one down side may be housing... though honestly, from what I've seen in Fargo and Bismarck pricing on realtor.com, I'm not sure how much different it is. The houses were more expensive when compared to NJ (I know, shocked me too) but the lower taxes more than compensated. We bought a 6 bedroom (yes, lots of bedrooms are easy to find) 3 1/2 bathroom, 5,000 square foot house, with a 3 car attached garage on 1/3 of an acre in one of the nicer burbs for just over $400k and our taxes will be about $3,200 a year. I'll let you do your own comparison on that versus affordable. Our mortgage went up about $100k but we're saving over $600 a month on taxes so our total payment went down about $200 a month when compared to NJ.
One last thing... we've loved the weather here. It's definitely a desert in the summer (came out here in June) with temps in the mid-90s but with next to no humidity it's extremely comfortable. We enjoyed a beautiful fall here and it sounds like we'll have snow on Monday. I would say you'd get the 4 seasons here and may even miss some of the extremes of ND (cold in the winter, and heat/humidity in the summer).
Like I said, we're quite happy here and I imagine we'll be attempting to set as deep of roots as my career will allow me.
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