the "BIG 4 BATTLE ROYAL": Fargo v Bis v GF v Minot (Bismarck: apartment complex, big house)

[Roloff1976]

I was curious and looked up the 2005 metro estimates...they list Fargo at 185,000, Bismarck at 101,000 and Grand Forks at 97,000.
So Grand Forks actually has more people in their metro area than we thought? (these numbers are from the 2006 release of metro statistics on the Census Bureau Home Page site )

[BreaOC]

Originally Posted by Roloff1976

I was curious and looked up the 2005 metro estimates...they list Fargo at 185,000, Bismarck at 101,000 and Grand Forks at 97,000.
So Grand Forks actually has more people in their metro area than we thought? (these numbers are from the 2006 release of metro statistics on the Census Bureau Home Page site )

1994- 105,601
1995- 105,650
1996- 105,443
1997- 103,643
1998- 99,938
1999- 97,919
2000- 97,478
2001- 96,282
2002- 95,740
2003- 95,608
2004- 96,974
2005- 96,293
2006- 96,523

This is the popluation data (Grand Forks, ND-MN Metropolitan Statistical Area (CBSA) Population and Components of Change) for the GF MSA. GF used to have nearly 106,000 however only 2 of the years since 1994 have shown growth. GF's MSA is actually lower now than after the flood.

Dan, don't freak out lol. I was actually last in GF in 2004, I've seen what the city has done and how it is attempting to progress, especially after the flood. I just like to give GF crap, it's all in fun and games. I personally wouldn't live there, but it doesn't mean I think less of people who do. I've had a great time in every city I've visited across the US and GF is no exception. I just prefer Bismarck, then Fargo, then GF (Minot doesn't count lol)

[Roloff1976]

I'm sure the GF MSA declined also due to the cutbacks at the GF Airforce base...you have 1,000 or more military cutbacks, plus any family members who also lived on the base. That is quite a number of people who no longer live in the GF area. But I think Grand Forks will come back. It is a nice city.

[fourwinds]

Originally Posted by Roloff1976

I'm sure the GF MSA declined also due to the cutbacks at the GF Airforce base...you have 1,000 or more military cutbacks, plus any family members who also lived on the base. That is quite a number of people who no longer live in the GF area. But I think Grand Forks will come back. It is a nice city.

GFAFB formerly was one of the ten largest "cities" in ND with over 10,000 people. Now, with all the cutbacks (missile wing, bomber wing, refueling wing) the population is supposedlly around 1/4 to 1/5 th of that. The Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) directive of the base hasn't really taken off yet, but it promises to bring more contractor and higher tech civilian jobs with it than GFAFB's former uses.

Also, before the flood, GF was over 50,000, but lost more than 4000 of its residents in 1997. EGF lost over 1000. Also, there's been a lot of population loss in rural western GF county (lots of base support people lived there and farm populations are dwindling) and eastern Polk county (Minn), as huge amounts of land there has been turned over to CRP. Considering the double whammies the GF area has taken, GF is doing remarkably well, especially with Cirrus airplanes, LM Glasfiber wind turbines, and UND research adding large numbers of jobs. The impact of the strong Canadian dollar is helping a lot with Winnipeg resident flocking into town for shopping. Furthermore, since the flood, Grand Forks has an unpararalled entertainment options with the Engelstad Arena, Alerus Center, and Canad Inn complex relative to other ND cities.

[BreaOC]

The population of the AFB is 48% of what it was before, now at 4,832. Still doesn't quite make up for the 9,200 people that have left the area over the last decade. I think the Engelstad Arena is beautiful, however the Alerus was a waste and is constantly in the red. As for the Canad Inn, the hotel chain plans a larger development in the city of Bismarck and I'm sure will plan a development similar if not larger in Fargo shortly after. A lot of Canadians do stop in GF, however it's a stop that most make either on their way to Minneapolis or Fargo. I was amazed at how many Canadians, from Winnipeg specifically, were shopping in Minneapolis when I worked at a mall there. It's like Minot, a lot of Canadians stop there but it's just on their way to Bismarck. I will admit that GF isn't going down without a fight.


Canad Inns made its pitch to construct a 260-room, 16-floor tower hotel and water park adjacent to the Bismarck Civic Center, a January 5, 2008 article in the Bismarck Tribune confirms that the Canad Inn is still planned for the center as well as a 20,000 sq ft addition.

[ebitdadada]

Originally Posted by BreaOC

The population of the AFB is 48% of what it was before, now at 4,832. Still doesn't quite make up for the 9,200 people that have left the area over the last decade. I think the Engelstad Arena is beautiful, however the Alerus was a waste and is constantly in the red. As for the Canad Inn, the hotel chain plans a larger development in the city of Bismarck and I'm sure will plan a development similar if not larger in Fargo shortly after. A lot of Canadians do stop in GF, however it's a stop that most make either on their way to Minneapolis or Fargo. I was amazed at how many Canadians, from Winnipeg specifically, were shopping in Minneapolis when I worked at a mall there. It's like Minot, a lot of Canadians stop there but it's just on their way to Bismarck. I will admit that GF isn't going down without a fight.

Actually, 4,832 people leaving the GF AFB would more than explain GF's population decline – thanks for the info, this is kind of neat :

Airforce jobs fall into the category of "Primary Sector" jobs meaning (like a manufacturer, a corporate headquarters, etc.) the money for their salaries comes from outside the area (unlike say a drycleaner or a doctor, the "Secondary Sector"). Normally, each primary sector job creates somewhere between 1.5 and 2 secondary sector jobs.

So assuming 2,500 of the 3,000 people living on the AFB were employed by the Airforce, the loss of those jobs really cost 3,000 + 3,000*1.5 = 7,500 jobs. Toss in a few kids and some non working spouses, (lets say 0.5 per employed person) and you get a loss of 7,500 + 3,750 = 11,250 people due to the airforce reductions.

So, controlling for the Airforce reduction, Grand Forks may have actually gained people in the last 10 or so years .

[ebitdadada]

Originally Posted by BreaOC

[font=Century Gothic]

Canad Inns made its pitch to construct a 260-room, 16-floor tower hotel and water park adjacent to the Bismarck Civic Center, a January 5, 2008 article in the Bismarck Tribune confirms that the Canad Inn is still planned for the center as well as a 20,000 sq ft addition.

The (possibly) sad thing about Bismarck Canad is that it will only go through if the city council agrees to expand the Civic Center (like they've been planing forever): It seems, however, that the esteemed city commissionors David Jensen (i.e. Mr. I'm against abosolutly everything ) and Steve Schwab are attempting to block the Civic Center expansion / Canad Inn.

Hopefully the rest will find a way to override them. A downtown Bismarck Canad along with the follow on development local developers are talking about could be downright transformational for downtown Bismarck.

[BreaOC]

LOL wow you don't give up huh? I guess I'll leave it at the statement that regardless of where the numbers came from, the population of Grand Forks as a whole has dropped, and most of the decline has been post flood when the city was supposedly on the rebound. That's the only info that has any backing up, everything else is no more than speculation. Fargo and Bismarck (including their "metro" areas) are basically the only areas showing growth and the trend goes to show that may be the future of the cities in the state. The Canad Inn would be nice, however I have read that Canad Inn's likes to propose to cities but give them ultimatums in the process. GF is currently in the process of conducting studies to see if allowing them in was financially a plus or minus for the city, and if a big study has to be done to find that out, something that should be clear as day with such a large development, the city must not have positive feelings about it. Perhaps Bismarck should rekindle talks with the other chains that originally proposed, like the Hyatt, who only pulled out because the city wouldn't commit to building a new parking ramp... Grrrrr. As for other development in Bismarck I am proud that the city has developed as it has been and anything new is always exciting. GF hopefully should remember how that is, even though it's been awhile since anything "new" has happened there, besides store closings . As for the state as a whole everybody should be happy that the state is finally showing growth in the last 2 years, even if it is only 3,700 people. Maybe you can take that number and show me how many different sector jobs the increase made lol

[DaninEGF]

Originally Posted by BreaOC

LOL wow you don't give up huh? I guess I'll leave it at the statement that regardless of where the numbers came from, the population of Grand Forks as a whole has dropped, and most of the decline has been post flood when the city was supposedly on the rebound. That's the only info that has any backing up, everything else is no more than speculation. Fargo and Bismarck (including their "metro" areas) are basically the only areas showing growth and the trend goes to show that may be the future of the cities in the state. The Canad Inn would be nice, however I have read that Canad Inn's likes to propose to cities but give them ultimatums in the process. GF is currently in the process of conducting studies to see if allowing them in was financially a plus or minus for the city, and if a big study has to be done to find that out, something that should be clear as day with such a large development, the city must not have positive feelings about it. Perhaps Bismarck should rekindle talks with the other chains that originally proposed, like the Hyatt, who only pulled out because the city wouldn't commit to building a new parking ramp... Grrrrr. As for other development in Bismarck I am proud that the city has developed as it has been and anything new is always exciting. GF hopefully should remember how that is, even though it's been awhile since anything "new" has happened there, besides store closings . As for the state as a whole everybody should be happy that the state is finally showing growth in the last 2 years, even if it is only 3,700 people. Maybe you can take that number and show me how many different sector jobs the increase made lol

I am afraid you are confusing Grand Forks city with the MSA and/or the county. The MSA population cited in prev posts does show a pop drop but the MSA covers all of Polk and Grand Forks county....the CITY of Grand Forks has shown a population increase. The link below from the census data shows a pop of 49,321 for the city in 2000 and a July 1, 2006 estimate of 50,372 an increase of around 1,000 from 2000. Bismarck which has had higher growth showed an increase of nearly 3,000 over that period. The city of Fargo itself is pretty much built out, except for a small areas in the southwest, and the city of Fargo has held steady...but of course the metro area has grown.

City and area officials dispute the numbers from the census as they said it is underdone...they put an estimate about 3,000 higher than the census estimate.


http://www.ndsu.edu/sdc/data/estimates/PlaceTotals2006_sort_forweb.pdf (broken link)


The Canad Inn has been very successful here in GF and the water park has been a great attraction (cant go swimming outside much The Canad Inn would be a benefit to Bismarck as well I would think. We do get lots of shoppers in GF from Winnipeg and a majority do stay the night.

Dan

Dan

[DaninEGF]

Originally Posted by BreaOC

GF hopefully should remember how that is, even though it's been awhile since anything "new" has happened there, besides store closings .

I just read that part of the post and I dont know where you got that from about all these closings.... Canad Inn new....new Country Inn and Suites being built....New research and development building on UND campus....Just opened Kohls...Ashleys furniture....Golden Corral....Texas Roadhouse...Bostons in the past 1 1/2 years...and a new Denny's being built too. Of course we had a new superTarget, Lowes, Old Navy and Michaels back when that went in say 4-5 years ago. Oh...in EGF there is a new 12 screen stadium seating movie theatre that is in the Riverwalk Centre across from Cabelas. A whole lot of stuff going on for a city that only gained population of 1,000 in 6 years. Please dont distort facts for those who do not live here.

Dan