Hazleton Hispanic Question (Allentown, Scranton, Wilkes-Barre: income, zoning, job)

[KristyLiz]

Originally Posted by tsedeski

Simply put, without the labor force you are talking about (illegal or not) our economy would suffer dramatically both locally and nationally. This is the sole reason the federal government hasn't dealt with this issue yet. Recent rumblings of grandfathering anyone that has made it in until now and then enforcing the borders after that seems to make a bit of sense to me. It solves the hit on the economy probelm that would happen if you tried to cut off illegal workers in one shot and it handles moving forward in a matter that is likely acceptable to other Americans.

I work in the construction and development industry and i can tell you with high confidence that the hispanic and asian work force is better and faster than ANY other ethnic background. Our industry would colapse and prices would skyrocket without them. Agian, the government knows this and what is one of the initial indicators used by all economists? Construction, who's impact typically follows economic treads more accurately in the short term than other industries.

True, many illegals likely abuse our entitlement programs but just like all other ethnicities in our lower socioeconomic classes, this is more a product of their surroundings and not the individual. Without investing in other programs such as education, family services etc the problem with entitlement programs will continue to persist and grow from generation to generation. In fact, our nation is full of legal, american born citizens that woudl rather abuse the entitlement programs than take the jobs from the illegal workers. That is sad. Over generations, they have become complacent with the handouts and feel it better to follow in their parents footsteps than go out and work for the $10-$15 per hour and EARN their keep. When it comes to that comparison, i side with the illegal willing to put in a honest days work.

I agree with all of what you said here, especially what I bolded

[NYRangers 2008]

Originally Posted by KristyLiz

I guess I just don't feel the same way.

BTW, I am grew up in Coram

I didn't grow up too far away from you. I was a little further south on RT.112 in Medford. I also lived in Lindenhurst. By the way, I was wondering if the Pathmark in Coram is still there? My Mom worked there years ago. Have a nice day.

[KristyLiz]

Originally Posted by NYRangers 2008

I was wondering if the Pathmark in Coram is still there? My Mom worked there years ago. Have a nice day.

How funny! I have no idea, I haven't been back there in years - I left in 1990.

[NYRangers 2008]

Originally Posted by KristyLiz

How funny! I have no idea, I haven't been back there in years - I left in 1990.

I haven't been there in years either. I moved to PA in 1986. I've visited Long Island many times in the last few years, but haven't been in that area in over 15.

[TheHighHat]

NY,

I was talking to a cousin over the weekend in the Long Island area and they were telling me that an electric bill is more than a car payment. Things are getting pretty expensive these days!

the hat

[maf763]

I think much of what tsedeski says makes a lot of sense, but I'm not so sure that much of the savings from using illegal labor gets passed on to the consumer. Even with an increase in immigrant construction labor, new housing prices have skyrocketed over the last few years. Developers were charging the prices they did because there was demand - the savings on labor probably just helped fatten their bottom line. Had they used American union labor, for example, they still would have made a profit, just not quite as high. Prices wouldn't skyrocket if people wouldn't pay them. But by using cheaper labor and charging the same prices, the profit margin for owners and shareholders is what has skyrocketed.

Separate from tsedeski's points, I'm unconvinced that underpaying workers who are marginalized by their residency status is good for our economy in the long run. I think what it does is create more wealth for those who can exploit the situation, further stratifying our social classes.

[NYRangers 2008]

Originally Posted by TheHighHat

NY,

I was talking to a cousin over the weekend in the Long Island area and they were telling me that an electric bill is more than a car payment. Things are getting pretty expensive these days!

the hat

I can believe that. Things were expensive back in '86. That's one of the reasons my parents moved up to PA. I could imagine what houses and taxes are now on the Island.

[TheHighHat]

NY Rangers,

I have neighbors from the Long Island. The taxes are getting pretty intense here. We are paying almost $6,000 a year and family in Holbrook paying $7,000. Something wrong with this picture when you figure the only allocation taxes are for her are schools.

The Hat

[tsedeski]

Maf763,

I disagree on several points.

1. union labor (in construciotn at least) is usually 2-4x the cost of competative bids. In addition, the quality of the work and espcially the schedule usually suffers. Unions have turned into another "entitlement" handout in many cases.
2. Minority workers (illegal or not) aren't underpaid (at least in construction). They just simple work much harder. The majority of the trades are now piecework which basically means they get paid by the unit, square foot etc rather than by the hour. This guarantees the profit margin of the subcontractor because his costs are now fixed and usually means big bucks if your a hard worker. Many of my subcontractors who are typically hispanic or asian, are doing as well or better than me, the executive in charge. However, they work much harder, physically anyway.
3. Cost and sale price of homes really arent realated. The sale price is based solely on supply and demand. Cost follow the demand but it takes a long time to reach equilibrium with the market. its not as immediate as the sale price is. If margins widen during a housing boom everyone benefits, albeit indirectly, in an increase economy via 401Ks and other investments. That is capitalism, the root of our democracy and i would have it no other way. That beign said, i have always thought that municipalities and other goverenment jurisdictions that provide zoning and permit approvals to developers ought to be requiring more proffers. Proffers are agreements between the town and developer where certain items must be provided to the community at the developers expense prior to approval of the project. These often take the form of new roads, traffic signals and other infrastructure, land for schools or parks, etc. Obviously this raises costs which will get passed onto the new home buyer. However, instead of the town having to raise taxes or sell bonds to build these things, the users of the new roads or schools needed (the new home buyers) foot the bill and not the retirees or empty nesters living nearby. The costs are borne by the user and not the entire community.

[maf763]

Maybe I didn't phrase it well but I agree with what you are saying here. Some people say that we need illegal labor because without it consumer costs would be too high - I thought that was your original point. I have no problem with how supply and demand works and developers should charge what they could. But it sounds like we are both saying that they would charge their prices regardless of what they had to pay their subs (to an extent). That was the main point of my post. The supplier will charge what the market will bear. Lower production costs = higher profits.