Anyone Read "Electric City Renaissance?" (Scranton, Centralia: low income, for sale)

[SteelCityRising]

Originally Posted by MsMilford

Besides, anyone who is thinking of moving to the area and who reads your posts will run away screaming if they believe only your version. Is that what you really want?

This is exactly why Dan and I end up bickering so much on this forum. I know in real life he's far from being some malcontented nutcase, but on this forum this is how he expresses himself. He has some legitimate gripes with the city when it comes to certain issues that should have been rectified years ago before they became serious issues, including the damaged riverbank that permits the Lackawanna River to continuously flood Lower Green Ridge, as well as the health hazards concerning Daron Northeast. However, when you have a dwindling tax base and rising expenditures, some sort of tax increases must be expected. Any Scranton city council candidate who currently runs on the platform of "no tax increases under my tenure" will have lost my vote, since it is highly unlikely that enough new revenue sources can be found to compensate for the dwindling tax base and rising health care, pension, and other expenditures without causing some sort of tax increase somewhere. I'm all for "trimming the fat" in terms of getting rid of seemingly useless public officials such as Ms. Hailstone, but even eliminating all of these unnecessary administrative salaries will only be a drop in the bucket for the city's overall financial picture. This is why I can't fully understand why poor Mr. McGoff is being nailed to the cross by everyone for refusing to say "no" when Mrs. Craig approached the podium and bluntly asked him if he'd vote for another tax increase in the future. There's just no way with a clear conscience to say there will not be when the city is in such dire financial straits. Why scapegoat him for telling the honest truth? Any city council candidate who runs on the platform of "lowering taxes" is an absolute liar, and anyone who votes for him/her based upon such a promise is an asbolute fool. If anything it may be possible to hold taxes steady for several years, but you'll never see tax reductions for typical Scranton homeowners.

What Dan doesn't realize is that unlike Doherty Deceit, this particular forum attracts more than just Moe, Larry, and Curly from South Side. This forum attracts people who are considering relocating to the city (and region) from NJ, NY, Philadelphia, and as we saw with New2Pa, for example, even the Plains states. When they read nothing but gloom and doom about high sewer fees, high property taxes, high wage tax, empty promises, red ink, KOZs, political malfeasance, etc., they'll immediately write-off the city as a potential place to relocate. If they read my messages about the city attempting to restore its image with more annual festivals, a growing arts/cultural scene, revitalized downtown buildings, historic architecture, etc., then they'll be more inclined to give the city a second chance. The only way to rebuild this city is to rebuild the tax base, and you CERTAINLY attract more flies with honey than with vinegar, as the old saying goes. If we want people to consider moving their families back into the city from the suburbs, then we have to remind them of all of the great things Scranton has to offer that they may have since forgotten about, such as walkability, friendly neighborhoods, mixed-use zoning, block parties, neighborhood schools, neighborhood parks, etc., much of which you won't find on a South Abington cul-de-sac. If we can show people the advantages of living in the city, then what's to stop them from giving it a second shot? The answer is people like Dan, who immediately snap them back into reality about how depressing and awful the city apparently is. I paint a rosy picture of the city; Dan paints a bleak one. The real Scranton lies somewhere in the middle, but I have yet to find many on this forum who don't take either Dan's pessimistic side or my own optimistic one.

Dan has been disillusioned by the masses in the city who didn't graduate high school and are now trying to support three children alone on the salary of a Wal-Mart cashier while paying these "Draconian" taxes as people like Mrs. Craig and Mr. Spiraglia always refer to them as. This is why he continually pokes fun at my youth and supposed naivety and immaturity. He fails to realize that not everyone screwed up in their lives. He fails to realize that those of us who are working, taking out student loans, and studying like crazy to invest in our futures deserve places like the new book store, Northern Lights, Starbuck's, art galleries, ethnic restaurants, Nay Aug Park, etc. to relax and unwind with on occasion after we're established in our post-graduate careers. Why should everyone be punished with a lack of progress in the downtown on account of those who had no professional ambitions in life? My own father and mother struggled for years in a trailer-park when my sister and I were younger. My dad finally decided to swallow his pride and earn his Bachelor's Degree, which opened the door for lucrative career opportunities as a systems analyst with companies like IBM, Prudential, and CONVERGYS, in which he's been consistently earning at least $55,000 per year. My mother similarly worked dilligently to earn her Associate's Degree and likewise now has a job she loves. Combined they make more than enough to go out to eat every week (at the very same ethnic eateries that Dan slams into the ground because 1/6 of the city is too poor to occasionally eat at them), to enjoy movies at the Marquee Cinema, to enjoy a performance once a year or so at the Scranton Cultural Center, etc. My parents are very humble and never forgot where they came from, but why should they be expected to watch our city sit by and bite the dust until the other 1/6 of the city's residents likewise pull themselves up by the bootstraps? Dan's major arguments are that things like Poochie, Northern Lights, Thai Rak Thai, Niko Bella, Brixx, Anthologie, Lavish, etc. are all worthless and useless because not everyone in the city makes enough money to patronize them. SO WHAT? Everyone in the city makes enough money to enjoy the improvements at Nay Aug Park. Contrary to what the Legion of Doom says, I have yet to bump into anyone with one nasty thing to say about the park. The common mindset in NEPA seems to be "If I can't afford to have anything nice, then nobody should be able to." You see this all the time with the teacher-bashing with the comments like "I don't get paid holidays, so why should they?" or "I don't get summers off, so why should they?" I suppose it's just easier to slam more successful people into the ground instead of trying to bring yourself up to a better socioeconomic status.

I watch the council meetings week after week and just shake my head in disgust. To some, people like Bill Jackowitz, Andy Spiraglia, and Nancy Craig are saints and heroes. To me they're nothing more than a bunch of hypocrites. They have the nerve to demand that people who refuse to pay their taxes shouldn't be disciplined for it, yet they'd be the first ones to b*tch if there was a tax increase and they discovered there was still tax revenue available to be reaped from those who don't pay their taxes. Do they realize they can't have things both ways? You can't let delinquent tax payers off the hook and STILL expect them to do their civic duty and pay them. If I knew there were no consequences to breaking the law, then I'd gladly do 95 everyday on the Cross-Valley Freeway on my morning rush-hour commute. Why shouldn't I? It's not like I'll be punished for it, right? Those who don't pay their city taxes likely have the same mindset of "why should I even bother if nothing bad will happen to me?," which is why I don't understand the logic of these people in not supporting punishments. I no longer attend the meetings in person because I just can't find common ground with 9/10 of the people who approach the podium anymore, whereas I used to think a lot of what they said had merit. You can see this crystal clear with people like Ozzie Quinn, who continues to invent relatives of Sherry Nealon-Fannuci as if he knows more about her own family than she does in what I can see right through to only be a cheap personal attack against her.

Dan is by no means a "bad guy." I admire him for standing up for his neighborhood. However, I think it would literally KILL him if he had to say one nice thing about the city to help counterbalance the negativity he expels. A fine example would be "Scranton has one of the highest wage taxes in the nation at 3.4%, but it also has the lowest crime rate in PA for a city of its size." I freely warn people about the wage tax, rising property taxes, potholes, political issues, etc., but I don't dwell on them like so many others in Scranton do. I certainly hope I bump into some more cheerful, optimistic neighbors in the future when I move to Hyde Park.

[CHS89]

Her last name is Krake, not Craig. She's president of the Scranton clerical union.

[weluvpa]

[quote=ScrantonWilkesBarre;1719106]

Any Scranton city council candidate who currently runs on the platform of "no tax increases under my tenure" will have lost my vote, since it is highly unlikely that enough new revenue sources can be found to compensate for the dwindling tax base and rising health care, pension, and other expenditures without causing some sort of tax increase somewhere.

The fact that the current mayor has spent over $10,000,000 on new hires for jobs that they are nearly qualified for and he gave all 50% salary increases and consultants for them to have to teach them how to do their jobs. In one dept alone we have spent close to $500,000 on consultants and the 50%. They actually could have hired someone qualified for the original salary and saved on the consultants, but no that makes sense. The current admin is on a $400,000,000 debt spending spree and we are getting stuck with the bill and Gatelli, Fanucci and McGoff are responsible for it.

What Dan doesn't realize is that unlike Doherty Deceit, this particular forum attracts more than just Moe, Larry, and Curly from South Side. This forum attracts people who are considering relocating to the city (and region) from NJ, NY, Philadelphia, and as we saw with New2Pa, for example, even the Plains states. When they read nothing but gloom and doom about high sewer fees, high property taxes, high wage tax, empty promises, red ink, KOZs, political malfeasance, etc., they'll immediately write-off the city as a potential place to relocate.

I most certainly realize who reads this board and I could careless if they move here or not. I am going to make sure that they know what those festivals and revitalized buildings are going to cost and what they have cost us. I would be pissed if I moved here based on your info in regards to the scene in Scranton. Your so off base and dillusional on how this city really is that its not even funny.

If we want people to consider moving their families back into the city from the suburbs, then we have to remind them of all of the great things Scranton has to offer that they may have since forgotten about, such as walkability, friendly neighborhoods, mixed-use zoning, block parties, neighborhood schools, neighborhood parks, etc., much of which you won't find on a South Abington cul-de-sac. If we can show people the advantages of living in the city, then what's to stop them from giving it a second shot? The answer is people like Dan, who immediately snap them back into reality about how depressing and awful the city apparently is. I paint a rosy picture of the city; Dan paints a bleak one.

First off who is we? You live in Pittston with your parents and your 20 years old, you do not pay taxes here, nor do you work here. Scranton is place that you visit, you do not have to depend on anything or anyone in this city for anything in your life. NO ONE IS GOING TO MOVE BACK TO THE CITY FROM THE BURBS! Walkability? Walkability to what? There is no grocery stores or markets in the downtown, the downtown pretty much shuts down by 6:30pm. I'm sorry I did not realize that the reality of living in this city and what and how it will effect your family was something we should be keeping from hard working people that are trying to provide for their families.

Dan has been disillusioned by the masses in the city who didn't graduate high school and are now trying to support three children alone on the salary of a Wal-Mart cashier while paying these "Draconian" taxes

Paul do you mean the tax payers and residents of this city? Didn't gradute high school? What the hell is wrong with you? Who the hell do you think you are to pass that kind of judgement around on people that are doing whatever they have to so they can take care of their families while you eat dinner with mommy and daddy in Pittston while you go to college and live free at home and are you still unemployed?

He fails to realize that not everyone screwed up in their lives. He fails to realize that those of us who are working, taking out student loans, and studying like crazy to invest in our futures deserve places like the new book store, Northern Lights, Starbuck's, art galleries, ethnic restaurants, Nay Aug Park, etc. to relax and unwind with on occasion after we're established in our post-graduate careers. Why should everyone be punished with a lack of progress in the downtown on account of those who had no professional ambitions in life?

This is probably one of the most insulting and immature statements that I have ever read and it clearly shows your age and yes your naivety. Live changes and if you think because you are going to get a degree that you are just going to get a job like that! I know people with a hell of alot more under their belt in experience and education then you that had a hard and still are having a hard time finding a good job that matches their qualifications. What the hell to do you deserve Paul? You do not even live here and who the hell knows if you will but to think that the taxpayers and I should foot the bill so you can pretend that your some kind of urban accounting guru who sips lattes. Your an ass and a child. You have no idea what situations in peoples lives are and what has got them to where they are. Who the hell do you think you are to determine who has or has not had proffessional ambitions in life? Are you the only person in the world that went to college? That and a big pat on the back welcome to the club, now what? You have alot growing to do and there are so many disappoints ahead of you. You just cannot possibly imagine what its like to have to feed your family and worry about bills and all that comes with being a ADULT. You really are off base on this Paul and you should just let it go because you have no standing as you live in moms house for free and have no job and goto to college and yes your 20.

Combined they make more than enough to go out to eat every week (at the very same ethnic eateries that Dan slams into the ground because 1/6 of the city is too poor to occasionally eat at them),

You really have a huge personal issue with money and its status don't you? Whats the matter do you not like poor people? I don't slam them into the ground I just do not care about the restaurants and I have probably eaten at them all by now. Combined in my household we can eat out almost every night of the week, so what?

[SteelCityRising]

Originally Posted by weluvpa

The fact that the current mayor has spent over $10,000,000 on new hires for jobs that they are nearly qualified for and he gave all 50% salary increases and consultants for them to have to teach them how to do their jobs. In one dept alone we have spent close to $500,000 on consultants and the 50%. They actually could have hired someone qualified for the original salary and saved on the consultants, but no that makes sense. The current admin is on a $400,000,000 debt spending spree and we are getting stuck with the bill and Gatelli, Fanucci and McGoff are responsible for it.

Agreed. The spending in this city has been out-of-control under Mayor Doherty's administration. However, in order to return the city to fiscal solvency, some unpopular decisions might have to be made, including tax increases. The city currently has a BB bond rating, which is inexcusable. The most important thing right now for the city to focus on is returning itself to black ink. I read with pleasure that Councilman Bill Courtright finally acknowledged the dire straits of the city's finances when he stated in the paper the other day that the city would not be kicking in $25,000 this year for Scranton Today programming. I can only hope that they are equally as thrifty when it comes to turning down funding requests for other non-essential city services and private organizations. Nevertheless, Mayor Doherty could forfeit his salary, council members could forfeit their salaries, every organization like Scranton Today could be turned down for funding approval, every item on the mayor's wish list could be denied, and wasteful administrative positions could be cut, and the city would STILL need to increase taxes somewhere and somehow to generate more revenues. What Doherty has done has been done---the spending is finished. Now instead of just b*tching about it on a message board, we can only hope that he has learned his lesson and will do everything in his power to return the city to fiscal solvency and restore our integrity via an improved bond rating in the upcoming years.

Originally Posted by weluvpa

I most certainly realize who reads this board and I could careless if they move here or not. I am going to make sure that they know what those festivals and revitalized buildings are going to cost and what they have cost us. I would be pissed if I moved here based on your info in regards to the scene in Scranton. Your so off base and dillusional on how this city really is that its not even funny.

I think YOU are the one that is off-base and delusional, Dan. You refuse to acknowledge anything positive occurring in the city. You continue to possess this "sky is falling" outlook about the city's financial condition without counterbalancing it with the great new improvements downtown, at Nay Aug Park, the blight removal initiatives, etc. Would you prefer that the city had invested no money over the past several years? Yes, Scranton would be more fiscally-solvent, but at what price? No progress, as I'm a firm believer that very little private investment would have occurred in the city without public investment to accompany it. People will invest in a city that appears to be investing in itself. The reason I'm moving to Scranton to restore a blighted home, open my own business, and raise my family is because I see just how far Scranton truly has recovered over the past decade while my own hometown of Pittston continues to rot to the core with no hope in sight. Why stay in a city whose leaders have no vision or foresight (and STILL have red ink) when I can move to a city with red ink that at least has accomplishments to show for it.

Originally Posted by weluvpa

First off who is we? You live in Pittston with your parents and your 20 years old, you do not pay taxes here, nor do you work here. Scranton is place that you visit, you do not have to depend on anything or anyone in this city for anything in your life. NO ONE IS GOING TO MOVE BACK TO THE CITY FROM THE BURBS! Walkability? Walkability to what? There is no grocery stores or markets in the downtown, the downtown pretty much shuts down by 6:30pm. I'm sorry I did not realize that the reality of living in this city and what and how it will effect your family was something we should be keeping from hard working people that are trying to provide for their families.

"Walkability" is not having to dodge four-lanes of heavy commuter traffic on sidewalk-less Highway 315 to walk to a playground, which is exactly what I had to do growing up. "Walkability" means that not only will my children be able to walk to parks and playgrounds, but they'll also be able to walk to friends' homes, neighborhood elementary schools, church, etc. "Walkability" means that I'll be able to walk to my downtown office, restaurants, the cultural center, the cinema, the mall, etc. on roads with SIDEWALKS, something the suburbs do not have.

Originally Posted by weluvpa

Paul do you mean the tax payers and residents of this city? Didn't gradute high school? What the hell is wrong with you? Who the hell do you think you are to pass that kind of judgement around on people that are doing whatever they have to so they can take care of their families while you eat dinner with mommy and daddy in Pittston while you go to college and live free at home and are you still unemployed?

Get your head out of the sand, Dan, and study our city's census statistics; they are rather bleak. As of the official 2000 Census, only 78.2% of those living in the city are high school graduates, which is less than the national average, and only 15.6% of city residents possess a Bachelor's Degree, which is far less than the national average. The 2006 estimates aren't much better---83.3% of the city has at least a high school diploma, which is still below the national average, and only 18.7% of city residents possess a Bachelor's Degree, which is 8.3% below the national average of 27%. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that people with higher levels of educational attainment tend to be higher earners over the course of their lifetimes---the prospect of more lucrative career opportunities is exactly what entices so many people to further their educations in the first place, and studies have been done that SHOW a correlation between higher levels of educational attainment and higher median household incomes in a community. As far as your continued bashing of me for being 20-years-old, I'll be more than happy to drop this debate now and come back in five years when I have my Master's Degree, have successfully passed my CPA exam, and am earning $55,000 in the city. Then what will your "crutches" be to berate me? Don't think for one moment that I'm not currently mired in student loan debt of my own; I'm trying to burden my parents as little as I possibly can. I've told you in the past that I can't move to Scranton right NOW because I attend college in Wilkes-Barre, and it wouldn't be prudent to do so when I currently live just ten minutes outside of Downtown Wilkes-Barre. Since we're on the "mommy and daddy" blame game, do you mind telling me who paid for your full tuition to attend Scranton Prep when you were a teenager?

Originally Posted by weluvpa

This is probably one of the most insulting and immature statements that I have ever read and it clearly shows your age and yes your naivety. Live changes and if you think because you are going to get a degree that you are just going to get a job like that! I know people with a hell of alot more under their belt in experience and education then you that had a hard and still are having a hard time finding a good job that matches their qualifications. What the hell to do you deserve Paul? You do not even live here and who the hell knows if you will but to think that the taxpayers and I should foot the bill so you can pretend that your some kind of urban accounting guru who sips lattes. Your an ass and a child. You have no idea what situations in peoples lives are and what has got them to where they are. Who the hell do you think you are to determine who has or has not had proffessional ambitions in life? Are you the only person in the world that went to college? That and a big pat on the back welcome to the club, now what? You have alot growing to do and there are so many disappoints ahead of you. You just cannot possibly imagine what its like to have to feed your family and worry about bills and all that comes with being a ADULT. You really are off base on this Paul and you should just let it go because you have no standing as you live in moms house for free and have no job and goto to college and yes your 20.

I'm an ass? Really, Dan? If anyone here is an ass it is you for continuing to be so short-sighted and hypocritcal. You continue to agree with everyone's common opinion that what the city needs in order to thrive again is an increased tax base to draw from, but then you come onto a major relocation-oriented message board and slam the city into the ground every chance you get. How the hell are you supposed to attract anyone to this city with such a sour grapes mentality? When people personally ask me about relocating to Scranton, I don't hide the 3.4% city wage tax from them. However, I DO make light of these "Draconian" city property tax increases that everyone whines about. You and the "Legion of Doom" continually make it out to sound as if these back-to-back 25% annual property tax increases are going to be on your ENTIRE tax bill, which is NOT true. The 25% increase will only affect the city's portion of your overall tax bill, which might be, at best, 25% of the bill since the school district eats up such a large percentage of that. For example, someone in Scranton with an annual tax bill of $2,000 will probably have $500 of that go to the city coffers with the rest split between the school district and the county. Only that $500 portion will be increasing by 25%, NOT the whole $2,000, and I don't know how many times I have to preach this to get that through everyone's skulls! 25% of $500 is $125, meaning that this property owner's overall tax bill will increase from $2,000 to $2,125, NOT from $2,000 to $2,500, as you've been deceiving people to believe if you were to tack an extra 25% onto that $2,000 figure. $125 per year is still a considerable chunk of change, but it is by no means unreasonable as a tax increase when compared to many other cities who have likewise raised taxes recently. You should come to the Pittston Area School District, where property taxes are raised every year to finance the out-of-control spending of our school board.

Originally Posted by weluvpa

You really have a huge personal issue with money and its status don't you? Whats the matter do you not like poor people? I don't slam them into the ground I just do not care about the restaurants and I have probably eaten at them all by now. Combined in my household we can eat out almost every night of the week, so what?

I never said I don't like poor people. I have some friends who receive transfer payments from the government, and I'm still humble about my roots in a trailer-park. However, I don't like the segment of poor people who do nothing but BEGRUDGE others for being more successful financially in life than they are. My parents never behaved in such an irresponsible, jealous manner when they were down on their luck; why do so many Scrantonians? The teacher-bashing example in NEPA was a good one on my behalf. Go onto Talkback 16 Online sometime and read comments like "My wife and I each work two jobs and make $30,000 per year, so why should teachers make more money than we do when they only work one job, and we work four?" It's exactly comments like those that turn my stomach sour. I don't know of one college graduate in our area that earns less than $30,000. I suggest that if people who are earning lousy salaries of less than $30,000 would like better compensation that they simply stop with the class envy, swallow their pride, take out loans, and either go to college or some sort of technical/trade school. With even a high school diploma or G.E.D. one could make something USEFUL of themselves as a plumber, massage therapist, auto mechanic, LPN, CNA, retail managment, etc., and all of these people earn decent middle-class wages. I'm tired of the whiners approaching the city council podium and saying, more or less, "I can't afford nice things so why should anyone else enjoy them?" You, DAN, are guilty of this as well. I can recall in the past when you would refute my pro-downtown rants with comments like "What good are dog bakeries and restaurants when most people in this city can't afford them?" Who's fault is that, Dan, that most people in this city don't lead middle-class lifestyles? It is NOT the fault of the government that our city's overall low educational attainment values make it unattractive for potential white-collar, high-paying firms to move in, and I'm tired of everyone placing the blame squarely on the shoulders of people like Austin Burke for this. Perhaps if our city didn't have barely any people with post-high school educations, as is shown in the Census as compared to the national average, we would be able to attract better career opportunties here? As I've said in the past, no great-paying firm would want to invest in a city like Scranton when they'd have to import skilled labor from elsewhere or spend massive amounts to train our existing workforce when they could just locate to an area where the educated workforce is already in existence. How is the lack of professional ambition on behalf of many city residents as a whole the fault of our government?

We're currently stuck in a Catch-22, my friend. We're not going to attract any decent career opportunities as long as the locals don't value education. The locals won't value obtaining an education unless there is the promise of higher-paying career opportunities tied to it. One can't happen without the other, so we're stuck up sh*t's creek without a paddle right now. If enough of our educated youths stick around to be counted in with the 2010 Census and our statistics improve to finally mirror the national averages, THEN we will have a great chance of luring better employers to our region. This is why I was an advocate of forming some sort of "Pay-for-Stay" program with some local universities offering students either reduced-cost or even free tuition for some or all of their years at these institutions if they signed a contract promising to live in the city limits for "X" number of years after graduation. Yes, this is a form of bribery, but we're all out of other options right now.

Dan, I'm sorry you can't un-brainwash yourself from the thoughts that Joe Pilchesky, The Legion of Doom, Doherty Deceit, etc. have filled into your head, and I hope you can eventually see things from a macroeconomic perspective here. I'm doing a service to our city by promoting it so much EVERYWHERE I go. I hype up the city because that is EXACTLY what it needs---optimism---to attract a growing middle-class population back into its boundaries from places like NY, NJ, Philadelphia, and the Poconos. The city's image has been tainted for far too long by the pessimists, and this has only lead to more problems for the city in terms of people who were considering moving to Scranton reading comments from people like you and changing their minds and/or existing city residents being brainwashed by the Legion of Doom, Doherty Deceit, etc. and moving to the suburbs. Am I lying in any way, shape, or form to people on this forum? Not at all.

I tell them that Scranton's 3.4% city wage tax is very oppressive, and that a good solution would be to enact more commuter-related taxes to obtain more funding from people who utilize city services while living in the suburbs so that the wage tax can be reduced to a more manageable percentage that wouldn't burden its own residents so much. Towns like Dunmore have a 1% wage tax, yet that doesn't faze anyone when they consider moving there. If we could find a way to reduce Scranton's wage tax to a similar 1%-1.5% through alternative revenue outlets (like more commuter-oriented taxes to more fairly spread the financial burden of city services), then people can stop using a high wage tax as an excuse not to move here.

I tell them that Scranton is currently deep in red ink and will be facing back-to-back 25% increases on the CITY'S portion of their overall tax bills. I tell them about the political ineptness and the potholes. However, unlike you, I also do my best to promote the city's improvements over the past decade, not only its utter failures, which is all you tend to focus on. I'll say this quote one last time, Dan, since you still don't seem to get it "You attract more flies with honey than with vinegar." If we want to improve our city's fiscal health, we need to attract more middle-class taxpayers. In order to do that we have to show them that there ARE reasons to move here. It seems like for every one positive post I make, others on here not only negate everything I say but then proceed to slam it into the opposite direction. Dan, in what way do the city's taxpayers benefit from people like you scaring off potential investors and new residents? May I ask you that?

P.S. I have yet to meet anyone who I've helped to relocate to Scranton who has begrudged me for deceiving them. Even former member ScrantonVideoProductions is happy in his new home, even though he lives in a somewhat-sketchy area of The Hill. To say I'm p*ssing people off by deceiving them into moving here is a gross exaggeration. If anything, you p*ss ME off by constantly trying your best to get the city's population to nosedive even further than it already has, which will only come back to bite you in the arse in the long-run when taxes have to be raised even MORE to maintain adequate city services with an even smaller tax base that was driven out even more quickly thanks to the efforts of people like you, Doherty Deceit, Legion of Doom, etc. I don't want to hear whining from any of you then when you find out that another tax increase is coming because more people were driven out of the city by your depressing comments.

[CHS89]

Answer me this...

How long has Scrantons wage tax been 3.4%? A lot of people (both here and on other websites) are carrying on as if Doherty increased the percentage as his first order of business upon taking office.

I'm looking for a date, or even a range (late 80's, mid 70's, that sort of thing...). I know it was at least before even Connors. One thing is for certain, the current administration is not responsible for initiating the 3.4% wage tax, so stop acting like it's a sudden hardship or inconvenience. You've been paying it for at least 15 years now, I'll bet. AT LEAST.

I hope that as a trade off to ceasing the whining about this particular subject, Paul would you finally stop acting as if you're currently a resident of Scranton? Yes, you have big plans, but as of right now, Dan's right, you still live in Pittston. Your plans to live in a downtown loft and walk to your $55K/yr CPA job (jeez, man, even Schrute's co-ownership of a B&B earned him $80K/yr, man!) are still a pipe dream.

Pipe dreams do not contribute anything to the revenue stream. I think we're dealing with the here and now. Five years down the road isn't an immediate concern.

[weluvpa]

[quote=ScrantonWilkesBarre;1722523]

I read with pleasure that Councilman Bill Courtright finally acknowledged the dire straits of the city's finances when he stated in the paper the other day that the city would not be kicking in $25,000 this year for Scranton Today programming. Nevertheless, Mayor Doherty could forfeit his salary, council members could forfeit their salaries, every organization like Scranton Today could be turned down for funding approval, every item on the mayor's wish list could be denied, and wasteful administrative positions could be cut, and the city would STILL need to increase taxes somewhere and somehow to generate more revenues. What Doherty has done has been done---the spending is finished.

The spending is finished? They just floated a $35,000,000 bond issue for the SPA and that $25,000 comes out of the council's operating budget and no where else. That money was pulled so that the ch 61 board could now bring in the U to help offset costs and the first thing that will get pulled is the council meetings. NOTHING happens for no reason my young friend. That is a way to get the meetings off the air. They also just approved the mayors $21,000,000 wish list that turns out was $16,000,000 short so we now have to borrow that money and council majority will do it. Gatelli, Fanucci and McGoff are there to the mayors bidding and thats it.

I think YOU are the one that is off-base and delusional, Dan. You refuse to acknowledge anything positive occurring in the city. You continue to possess this "sky is falling" outlook about the city's financial condition without counterbalancing it with the great new improvements downtown, at Nay Aug Park, the blight removal initiatives, etc.

There are currently close to 17 lawsuits filled against the city by residents for illegal condemnations and demolitions. There is no blight initiative, just more new hires doing the job that was created for them and now we are being sued for the blatant violations of the residents rights.

I'm a firm believer that very little private investment would have occurred in the city without public investment to accompany it. People will invest in a city that appears to be investing in itself.

There is no investment and what has been done is KOZ and when the KOZ is up they will move to the mid valley industrial park or some other park up the line.

The reason I'm moving to Scranton to restore a blighted home, open my own business, and raise my family is because I see just how far Scranton truly has recovered over the past decade while my own hometown of Pittston continues to rot to the core with no hope in sight.

When Paul? You have talked about Wilkes Barre and the twin cities and back to Scranton. Restore a home with what? YOUR 20 and still in college, you have no job and YOU HAVE NO FAMILY. Where do you think that you are going to get the money to redo a house adopt a baby and start a business? The money fairy does not exist and no matter what you think you are going to do after scholl its never like you plan it to be, ever. The past decade, 10 years ago you were 10 and playing with dolls what the hell do you know about the past decade? I have been living in this city for the past 17 years waiting for something to happen and working hard for it but when it did it cost us over $400,000,000 for what? A park that we cannot afford to maintain, Southern Union thats a joke, the mall that is barley hanging on and a few little shops that close every 3 years. Your a child in mans world and you have no idea what is in front of you and your so far out of touch with what the residents in this city need and want.

Since we're on the "mommy and daddy" blame game, do you mind telling me who paid for your full tuition to attend Scranton Prep when you were a teenager?

My mother and father paid for that and they also paid for my college education as well, so what. When I was 20 I was not telling my elders how they should and should not live because it was not my place. I am now my own man and living in the real world, while you are not. I am still here right now because after everything my parents have given me and done for me I cannot and will not abandon them in their later years. My dreams and hopes can wait while I spend the ladder years of parents lives with them. Its a sacrifice that me and my wife have choosen to make while my sister took off and never looked back. I am proud of what I am doing for them, its the little that I can do to repay them for all they have given me in my life.

The 25% increase will only affect the city's portion of your overall tax bill,

First off its actually going to be a 94.3% increase when we receive our next two increases, which we will get if McGoff is relected. You continue to say "WE", you do not live here and you do not pay taxes so what is "WE".

You, DAN, are guilty of this as well. I can recall in the past when you would refute my pro-downtown rants with comments like "What good are dog bakeries and restaurants when most people in this city can't afford them?" Who's fault is that, Dan, that most people in this city don't lead middle-class lifestyles? It is NOT the fault of the government that our city's overall low educational attainment values make it unattractive for potential white-collar, high-paying firms to move in, and I'm tired of everyone placing the blame squarely on the shoulders of people like Austin Burke for this.

What do think is going to happen Paul? Do you think that someone is going to wave their magic wand and make a century of history and demographics go away or change? Do you think that you are going to wake up one day and its going to be the Village or Hoboken? Have you ever lived anywhere but Pittston? Do you really have a clue?

How is the lack of professional ambition on behalf of many city residents as a whole the fault of our government?

There is a guy working at just cabinets with a masters degree in accounting who is trying to support a family with 3 kids because he cannot find a good job in the area in his field so he works two jobs to make ends meet. There is a guy at dick's who assembled my sons new bike with a masters in Psychology, no jobs in the area. There is a bartender at farley's with a masters in Psychology who is on state health benies and cannot find a job in his field in this area either.

This is why I was an advocate of forming some sort of "Pay-for-Stay" program with some local universities offering students either reduced-cost or even free tuition for some or all of their years at these institutions if they signed a contract promising to live in the city limits for "X" number of years after graduation.

How did that stupid attempt at getting Judy to help you work out? Any response? Yeh it worked out well we got a piece of our land back.

Dan, I'm sorry you can't un-brainwash yourself from the thoughts that Joe Pilchesky, The Legion of Doom, Doherty Deceit, etc. have filled into your head, and I hope you can eventually see things from a macroeconomic perspective here.

Brainwashed? I go on what my neighborhood has told me and every resident that has stopped me on the street or in the stores, bars, restaurants and told me what they think is wrong or what they feel should be changed and every single one is against this admin and their tax increases. I am out there at church dinners and picnics talking with the residents. I go to every event in the city that i can on a neighborhood level, do you? What have you done to get in touch with the residents of this city and to know what they want or do not want? NOTHING. Legion of doom? Do you have any idea who these people are or what their back grounds are? Your ignorance about them is funny you have no idea what or who you are talking about do you?

I'm doing a service to our city by promoting it so much EVERYWHERE I go.

Its not your city to promote Paul! You live in Pittston and you live at home and you are unemployed and yet you seem to think that you know what is best for adults who are actually out there making it work and trying their hardest to provide for their families with whatever they have going for them. Its called the real world and its something that you are not involved with and currently have no standing in. Don't you get it? You have no standing to tell adults what is good or bad for them. You have no standing when it comes to telling the residents of this city that they have no right to be pissed about the tax increase that you DO NOT pay. You have no standing on Scranton issues because you DO NOT LIVE HERE.

trying your best to get the city's population to nosedive even further than it already has, which will only come back to bite you in the arse in the long-run when taxes have to be raised even MORE to maintain adequate city services with an even smaller tax base that was driven out even more quickly thanks to the efforts of people like you, Doherty Deceit, Legion of Doom, etc. I don't want to hear whining from any of you then when you find out that another tax increase is coming because more people were driven out of the city by your depressing comments.

Your right its me and the few that have spoken out against the city and the mayor. The numbers started to take the nose dive the year he was elected. This mayor started with a $7,000,000 surplus budget in 2001 and now we are over $400,00,000 in long term debt? Your right its me I'm the one driving them away. We have the highest wage tax in the state and the lowest paid police dept. in the state, but your right its me thats driving them away. We have inadequate serives that are decreasing every year while our taxes increase and we get nothing for them, but no your right its me. Its me! I wish that I had that kind of power but since you do not live here and do not have to pay the taxes and do not have to deal with the lack of services, your right and you know it all Paul. Your the man, I mean kid.

I am done debating with your spoiled sheltered little ass, Sure you can throw numbers around and say that there is no reason for people to be whining but until you have walked in their shoes you have no right. You have no right because you are 20 and live at home and pay no bills or taxes. You have no right because you do not even live here in Scranton. You have no right because you are trying to tell people that have been thru life and its pitfalls what they should and should no complain about, when you have never even been outside of Pittston to live and haven't even fledged from the nest. You just do not have the right to tell adults how they should live in the real world from your moms basement. I'm done with you Paul and I just hope the people on this site see you for the sheltered, spoiled little boy you are. I'm sorry that your life is not what you want it to be, but thats your problem not ours. Scranton does not want you cheerleading nor do they need your help so go back and try to jump start Pittston's heart will ya.

[SteelCityRising]

Could you possibly be any more condascending? Time after time your only two defenses in our debates are either "You're young and naive" or "You don't live within the city's limits, so what you say doesn't matter."

It's nice that people in Scranton don't want any help from "outsiders." Look at what you Scrantonians have done to your own city for decades by being so insular---the city is now deeply mired in red ink and people there seem to be more miserable than ever before. I can't think of one city or nation in this world that managed to do well while turning down advice from "outsiders." Why the hell do you think Pittston is like the other side of the nation, anyways, when it is only ten minutes away? Like it or not we have to start looking at NEPA as a region and stop with the provincialism of "You can't tell us how to do things in South Abington Township because you live in North Abington Township" or "We don't want high-paying jobs in this area if they're going to come to Pittston Township and not Pittston." When Scranton succeeds, so does the region. When Scranton fails, so does the region. Pittston could fall off the face of the earth right now, and nobody would even notice. On the other hand, if Scranton were to do the same, our entire region would end up on life support due to the loss of so many cultural amenities and employers.

"Spoiled" my ass. I was one of the few at my alma mater who didn't have mommy and daddy buy me a brand new BMW on my 16th birthday. Why? I wanted to pay for my OWN vehicle, my OWN insurance, my OWN gasoline, and my OWN maintenance with my OWN nearly full-time job so I could take initiative to burden my parents less and permit them to save more money for their rapdily-approaching retirements (they're in their 50s now). If that makes me spoiled or irresponsible, then so be it. I'm also planning to reimburse my parents for the amount of my tuition they are helping me to pay that I'm not using loans to cover. Just because I'm tired of hearing incessant WHINING from grown men who didn't make anything of themselves professionally in life doesn't make me spoiled or a smartass. EVERYONE had the same opportunities in life to aggressively make something of themselves. I have a feeling your acquaintance who has the Master's Degree in Accounting simply hasn't tried dilligently enough to locate employment around here, as I know of various employers who have demands for CPAs. As for the others, why blame the area if you opted to major in something you knew ahead of time there was no demand for in our region? I knew I'd have a much easier time pursuing a career in Scranton as a CPA vs. being either an architect or urban planner, both of which are my true passions in life, which is why I gave up on my dreams to follow a more realistic career path.

It's very nice to hear that you're putting your dreams in life aside to care for your parents, but I didn't ask you to go onto the defensive there. I, too, hope to care for my parents in old age (as long as they eventually come to accept my partner). I don't criminalize you at all for being there when your parents need you the most, and I don't think that is pertinent in this debate.

I may only be twenty, but I'm very goal-oriented and have my life planned out to a "T." I'm well-aware that I could die Monday morning in a freak chain-reaction pile-up on the Cross-Valley for all I know, but I still like to plan several years ahead so I have something to look forward to in life. It was my lack of being able to see a promising future in high school that lead me to have suicidal tendencies, and it is through careful planning of my future that I once again have the motivation to wake up everyday.

At age 30 I could be earning $90,000 as a corporate controller for a Scranton firm. At age 30 I could be homeless. At age 30 I could be living in Maryland to care for my aging parents, who hope to retire near the Chesapeake Bay. At age 30 I could be dying of cancer or AIDS. Who knows? That's it---nobody does for sure. Having dreams for a brighter future is what keeps us all going in life. My brighter future involves leaving this hell-hole they call Pittston for a true neighborhood in Scranton where people care more about one another's well-being than furthering their own social statuses with shiny objects. With how much you seem to hate living in the city, your dream might be to see your son have children of his own someday and move to a McMansion in South Abington so that he won't have to be "saddled with the Doherty Debt," at which point you and your wife can move in with him and his family in your own old age and use the money you make from selling your two properties in Lower Green Ridge to travel the world. There's no reason to attack anyone for having dreams. I realize that my dream of moving to Scranton is a little odd considering most of my college peers here at King's are clawing to get the hell out of NEPA and into the gorgeous paradise they call Northern NJ, but when I want something badly enough, I find some way to get it through hard work and determination. I want a nice fixer-upper in Hyde Park to renovate into a respectable single-family dwelling, and I KNOW I'll get it. I want a Toyota Corolla, and I KNOW I'll get it. I want a career opportunity with Parente-Randolph, and I KNOW I'll eventually get it. I want to adopt three neglected children into a loving home, and I KNOW I'll eventually be able to do so, even if I have to do some political lobbying first. I want to make my partner happy in life, and I KNOW I can do it. Why not try having some confidence in your dreams, Dan; you'll be much happier in life when you make a list of everything you want to accomplish and then say "I CAN do it alll!"

[CHS89]

You can do it, Duffy Moon!

I think the point we're trying to make here, Paul, is that while you might be able to do it, eventually, the glaring fact is that RIGHT NOW you are not. You know that Dan and I do nothing but lock horns here, but it seems to me that we're both pretty sick of you blowing sunshine up everyone's ass. Enough is enough already. Scranton has it's share of problems, sure. Every city of our size does. But your five year plan of moving to a downtown loft that doesn't exist yet, and walking to a job you don't have yet for a company that may not still be here, shopping at boutiques and patronizing art galleries and gourmet coffee houses while you fix up a home you don't own yet is not doing anything to solve any of them NOW. After you move here and single handedly put Scranton in the black, then crow all you want. Until then, please dial it back just a bit, huh?

Fifteen years ago, when I was about yoru age, I was going to be running a kick ass sports bar in Arizona, looking forward to spending the holidays with my parents, and fornicating with as many ASU co-eds as would let me. Today, both of my parents have been passed away for a couple years now, I married a PSU grad, I work for a corporation, I have a kid, and my wife lets me have some once a month whether I need it or not.

My life's pretty good, even though not one of my plans came to fruition.

When you finally move here, if you actually do wind up moving here, THEN you can blow all the sunshine you want about YOUR city (I notice in your most recent post, that it's not your city anymore, it's ours. Fickle, much?). Cheerleading for Scranton from 10 miles away isn't doing a single thing to help.

Dream all you want. Just sprinkle your dreams with a little bit of reality if you want to "help" Scranton. THat's all we're asking.

[NYRangers 2008]

You guys are fighting about Scranton. I can't wait to get out of this God forsaken city. There is nothing great going on here and it's just going to get worse. I've had enough with this city council and mayor who continue to do nothing for the people. I'm sick of people saying how great this is in Scranton and how great that is. I don't see it. I see taxes going up and no services. The roads downtown and in West side are horrible. The infrastructures are crumbling. I don't care about new trendy eateries or boutiques. They don't help me. This city is not the promised land or some magical kingdom. I guess to the people looking in from the outside who don't actually live here, they see a great place. For me, after living here for over 5 years, I don't see anything that great to make me want to stay.

[SteelCityRising]

Originally Posted by NYRangers 2008

You guys are fighting about Scranton. I can't wait to get out of this God forsaken city. There is nothing great going on here and it's just going to get worse. I've had enough with this city council and mayor who continue to do nothing for the people. I'm sick of people saying how great this is in Scranton and how great that is. I don't see it. I see taxes going up and no services. The roads downtown and in West side are horrible. The infrastructures are crumbling. I don't care about new trendy eateries or boutiques. They don't help me. This city is not the promised land or some magical kingdom. I guess to the people looking in from the outside who don't actually live here, they see a great place. For me, after living here for over 5 years, I don't see anything that great to make me want to stay.

I personally don't see why Pittston is considered Nirvana to people from Scranton either, yet transplants from the Electric City keep on pouring on in year after year into our housing developments. I suppose "one man's trash is another man's treasure." I think having to run along four-lane commuter belts without sidewalks while trying to dodge crazed soccer moms on cell phones in Range Rovers is hell on Earth, while people in Scranton seem to think running along shaded, sidewalked streets is hell on Earth. I think having to play a crappy game of "keep up with the Jones's next-door" day after day to see who has the best-manicured lawn or nicest luxury sedan in the driveway is despicable, while people in Scranton seem to think enjoying block parties, charity benefits, and other "neighborly" events is despicable.

How many times must I tell you people that I quite honestly don't care about a freakin' 3.4% city wage tax. I don't care about a supposed 94% city tax increase. I don't care about potholes. I don't care about red ink. I don't care about Gatelli being an alleged overweight crybaby or Doherty being a supposed creative class homosexual closet-case. What I care about is providing my children and partner with a life I never had living here in the God-forsaken suburbs. I was never able to walk anywhere to play ball or hang out on a jungle gym. My parents would have had to have driven me to these venues, and they were often too busy at work to do so. I would love to be able to have block parties, backyard barbecues and pool parties, chats from front porches and over backyard fences and hedges, etc. Why nobody else sees these things as being assets is beyond me.

Sure, I could have all of this in Wilkes-Barre as well, but other than a few select neighborhoods there I just wouldn't feel SAFE walking to a lot of places, especially at night, whereas I've never felt threatened walking the streets of Scranton. While Wilkes-Barre is very financially-solvent, has a responsive mayor and council, and has a rebounding downtown business district, I'd still be leery of becoming the victim of a crime as so many of my college peers at King's have been over my tenure here. I could have this in Hazleton as well, but if the locals seem to hate ALL Hispanics, be they legal or illegal, then I think it's fair to assumet they probably hate gays as well. I could have this in the city proper of Pittston as well---that is until I get killed by a falling facade from a Main Street building or get swallowed up by a mine subsidence.

My point is that for all of its faults and flaws, Scranton still is the best city in the area for those who want to live in an urban environment because its benefits (which everyone on here overlooks) mitigate its negatives better than any of these other cities, where the drawbacks still seem to prevail.

Nobody likes tax increases, but these likely would have been necessary with or WITHOUT Mayor Doherty's overzealous spending. Even if the mayor were a penny-pincher and didn't invest a dime in the city's coffers during his tenure (which would probably make him a hero in the eyes of people like Ozzie Quinn, who doesn't realize that public investment tends to spawn matching private investment as well), you'd still have the SAME problem with a rapidly-eroding tax base (hence lower revenues) and rising expenditures. You can only trim the pork so much until you must raise taxes again. I'd rather pay a tax increase AND see the city progressing as opposed to paying a tax increase and seeing the city look just as disgusting as it did in the mid-1990s.