What happened to NEPA??? (Philadelphia, Pittsburgh: low income, section 8, 2010)

[padreegan]

I grew up living in many places in PA. Spent most of my time in Pittsburgh and a little south of Harrisburg.

A year ago I moved to NEPA.....THERE IS NOTHING HERE!

No jobs, no industry, no downtown life in Wilkes-barre or Scranton. All the Churches are empty...graffiti on all of the children's playground equipment, the Turkey Hill near me has been robbed 4 times in a year....


WHY DID I MOVE HERE?????


No offense, but I can't wait to move back to South Western PA, it is a completely different world on that side of the state.

[WasPA]

You're asking us? We don't have any idea why you moved here......

but, sorry you feel that way.

[tinman01]

Well I moved about 40 miles away from the valley for those very reasons.
1. Coal minor mentality. My Grandfather did it that way so I have to also.
Nothing but respect for my grand parents but there are better ways.
2. Luzern and Lakawana Counties bought in big to section 8 and low income houseing. With it came the crime.
3. Political corruption is as high as anywhere I have ever been. As a navy vet I have been to a lot of places. NE PA has nothing on most of them.
4. The culture that once made the area charming and appealing has been watered down. Sort of like a good wine. Once watered its flat and tastless.
Thats the wyoming valley.

[I LOVE PA!]

What is the real question here?
What happened to NEPA?
OR
Why did you move here?

I love NEPA and will call it home for many years to come. What exactly is it that you want to do? OK, the job situation is tough, but it is in many other places too. As far as night life...I'm a home body, but I see lots of bars in Scranton, and nice restaurants. Isn't that what is considered 'night life'?

[nkotb]

Originally Posted by I LOVE PA!

What is the real question here?
What happened to NEPA?
OR
Why did you move here?

I love NEPA and will call it home for many years to come. What exactly is it that you want to do? OK, the job situation is tough, but it is in many other places too. As far as night life...I'm a home body, but I see lots of bars in Scranton, and nice restaurants. Isn't that what is considered 'night life'?

As a 60 year resident, I agree with - Padreegan -what happened ?? I can
remember when the Poconos were for the upper class, now the lower class.
When you used to see big name entertainment at the CYC. Even boxing was
a big draw. Window shopping downtown Scranton or Wilkes-Barre - when is
the last time you were not afraid to walk in either one of those cities after
dark ?? And, NO I do not consider bars and restaurants nightlife !! That
was something we did after the big name entertainment, concerts, etc.

[timbolv]

I agree. I relocated to the Lehigh Valley. It really is a different world on the other side of "the Tunnel" so to speak. I can relate to the playground scenario. I couldn't take my kids to a Wilkes-Barre playground in the 90's without finding broken glass, condoms, graffiti, etc. Don't know about now but when I left the Wyoming Valley in the 90's it seemed to be going downhill FAST. well, Wilkes-Barre anyway. The cost of Living is higher on the south side of the tunnel but the economy is also healthier and theres more oportunities for children growing up IMO. Perhaps you get what you pay for?

[ScranBarre]

Originally Posted by timbolv

I agree. I relocated to the Lehigh Valley. It really is a different world on the other side of "the Tunnel" so to speak. I can relate to the playground scenario. I couldn't take my kids to a Wilkes-Barre playground in the 90's without finding broken glass, condoms, graffiti, etc. Don't know about now but when I left the Wyoming Valley in the 90's it seemed to be going downhill FAST. well, Wilkes-Barre anyway. The cost of Living is higher on the south side of the tunnel but the economy is also healthier and theres more oportunities for children growing up IMO. Perhaps you get what you pay for?

Wilkes-Barre continues to struggle with violent crime, but Scranton has cleaned itself up tremendously since you left in the 1990s. The city's violent crime rate dropped by 13% in 2007, and I've walked all over town without ever feeling uneasy. There was 1 murder in 2005, 0 in 2006, and 2 in 2007; those figures aren't too shabby for a city of 72,000, especially when you consider comparably-sized Reading usually has around a half-dozen per year, and Philadelphia typically has one per day.

I myself have felt threatened walking around Wilkes-Barre even during the day, but I just "walk tall" and try to intimidate others into leaving me alone. Most violent crime in Wilkes-Barre is not random; it is lowlives targeting other lowlives over drug deals gone awry. Wilkes-Barre may still be tumultous, but I hate it when people envision the entire region as having a crime issue. Wilkes-Barre, Hazleton, Williamsport, Stroudsburg, and Edwardsville are probably the only five cities in our region that seem to have crime that is disproportionately high for their populations. Cities like Scranton, Pittston, Carbondale, Kingston, Clarks Summit, Old Forge, Dunmore, etc. are very tame in comparison. Yes, the area is struggling economically, but if I didn't feel as if it had hope for a brighter tomorrow I wouldn't be investing here when my versatile degree could permit me to relocate anywhere.

[weluvpa]

I would not trust what Paul calls crime figures that come from the only newspaper in Scranton. The times and its owners support the mayor on every aspect of his campaigns and politics. The mayor has been trying to BREAK the police and fire unions here in the city by holding up their contracts for 6 years in court and he is trying to cut the forces at the same time. He wants 32 firemen gone and he is trying to negotiate the police contract to lower amounts. If the crime rates are reported as being down then the residents will not feel that he is wrong for wanting to make these cuts to police. Thats it in a nut shell, the paper is HIS PR machine and they will print what he wants to help his cause. The police union president stated publically that they were told that the officers also have been told to classify certain crimes differently on their reports so they fall statisically(SP?) under certain crimes so that the numbers will show less crimes of the violent manner. Sure there hasn't been a murder but someone was just jumped and beat into the hospital right in front of the mall by 10 kids about a month and half ago in broad daylight. I would say that if you really want to see what the crime in Scranton is like get a scanner and listen for yourself.
Sure there are mounatins and their outdoor activities but thats it. The problem with the city is the admin period. There have been no major events held in the downtown for a while and the last one at the CYC was last year around Valentines day and it was a mess for parking, for police and just a screw up. I'm sure Paul will site the Office convention and well we'll see if it happens again. Your right there is nothing coming to the city. The entertainment will now be at the Kirby or the amphitheater on Montage mt. People themselves want more from our area then it is because they have this insane idea that we are a suburb of Jersey and need to have what they do and well you get what you wish for. With that sprawl comes the traffic. The poconos of old are gone and now just a western slum for NYC and NJ and Scranton is on its way there right now. Our housing market is in the toilet and ripe for the slumlords to come in and get it up and running as a NYC,NJ slum rentat heaven. Just look at Southside and check to see how many out of state landowners there are. They want the "culture" of NYC but they don't want the scum well the scum is what will come first long before the culture. Look at the area around Stroudsburg and Tannersville, Gouldsboro and see how much it has changed for the worse over the last 10-15 years. North Pocono went from being a quite rural school district to be a crime ridden ghetto esque school with metal detectors at the doors. The NYC,NJ sprawl is on its way to Scranton faster then you know and the housing market is going to fuel it along with our areas attachment to section 8 and low income housing. The train will certainly add to it more then it will ever be a positive to our area. You want this to change then speak up, but as long as everyone allows the status quo to move ahead unchecked then we will get what some wish for. I for one don't see anyway to avoid it. Scranton will be the next Patterson NJ and there is nothing we can do to stop if no wants to speak out about it.

[ScranBarre]

Originally Posted by weluvpa

I would not trust what Paul calls crime figures that come from the only newspaper in Scranton. The times and its owners support the mayor on every aspect of his campaigns and politics. The mayor has been trying to BREAK the police and fire unions here in the city by holding up their contracts for 6 years in court and he is trying to cut the forces at the same time. He wants 32 firemen gone and he is trying to negotiate the police contract to lower amounts. If the crime rates are reported as being down then the residents will not feel that he is wrong for wanting to make these cuts to police. Thats it in a nut shell, the paper is HIS PR machine and they will print what he wants to help his cause. The police union president stated publically that they were told that the officers also have been told to classify certain crimes differently on their reports so they fall statisically(SP?) under certain crimes so that the numbers will show less crimes of the violent manner.

I don't know if I should believe the "hearsay" from the pro-Doherty folks at the Times-Tribune or the "hearsay" from those opposed to the mayor, as BOTH factions have had a history of deception in the past to further their own agendas. If Police Chief Elliott openly admitted that his department intentionally skews crime figures, then couldn't that be considered fraud? Isn't that something that could be criminally investigated in itself? I don't think someone who is as seemingly intelligent as Chief Elliott is would be so credulous as to incriminate himself by making such a comment about how his department willingly falsely reports crime information.

Could you give me an example of what this might entail? Could the department reclassify an armed home invasion as a misdemeanor pickpocketing? Could an attempted homicide caused by a beating be downgraded to aggravated assault? This just doesn't seem legal to me.

I don't think that Doherty has the ulterior motive of making crime look "rosy" in Scranton so people will champion him in slashing the police department. Most Scrantonians know that the crime in the Electric City, overall, is as low as it is because of the brave men and women in uniform, not despite them. They know that if you take 50 officers off the streets that crime will most certainly return, negating any short-term financial benefits via the payroll when more than 50 officers have to be hired a few years later to battle the resurgence in crime. Doherty would have to be a moron to believe that people think police officers are unnecessary in Scranton.

Originally Posted by weluvpa

Sure there hasn't been a murder but someone was just jumped and beat into the hospital right in front of the mall by 10 kids about a month and half ago in broad daylight. I would say that if you really want to see what the crime in Scranton is like get a scanner and listen for yourself.

I do have a police scanner, Dan, and I have the frequencies for both the Luzerne County 911 and Lackawanna County 911 programmed into it, along with frequencies for smaller stations ranging from the Abingtons on down to Nanticoke. I hear about police responding to calls everywhere, not specifically just Scranton.

A few months ago a drug deal gone sour led to one man getting gunned down in the street and another wounded one staggering into a nearby corner bar for help. Last month an elderly man was mugged while walking near Lincoln Heights. What do both of these crimes have in common? They both occurred right here in "humble" Pittston, a city of just 7,500 that has now proven itself to not be "immune" to big-city violent crime as drugs have taken over. A gay porn producer was stabbed multiple times, his throat was slashed so severely that he was nearly decapitated, and his home was set ablaze. Another man had an affinity for gunning down drug dealers and burying them in his backyard. What do both of these crimes have in common? They both occurred in the affluent area of the Back Mountain, a region of 30,000 where folks have the "it can't happen here" mentality. I was pickpocketed in Pittston. I have yet to feel threatened in Scranton.

Random acts of violence are rare in our region. Something tells me that these ten thugs in Downtown Scranton didn't just jump this man for no reason at all. Something in my gut tells me that he made a comment to them while passing, perhaps to berate them for skating or loitering. I myself had to walk through a gang of baggy-pantsed, foul-mouthed teens who were smoking in front of the food court entrance of the Wyoming Valley Mall one evening. I couldn't get through, so I said "excuse me" to try to get through. One of the morons thought he was funny and taunted me by coming up beside me and saying "Excuse you?" in a feminine voice in an attempt to lure me into a fight. I just continued walking towards my car while they snickered and one made a nasty comment about my sexual orientation that made my blood boil. I'd rather keep my cool than end up in the ER because I said something back to a group that vastly outnumbered me. I highly doubt that this man was just walking by and whistling when a group of ten thugs ran up and tackled him for no reason at all. Some words MUST have been exchanged.

As long as there are a plethora of morons in this area who enjoy breeding simply to leech more cash out of the government, there will always be crime when their unsupervised offspring convene. I blame this solely upon society as a whole, not government. You people in Scranton expect your government to do far too much in the way of providing guidance, parenting, etc. that it is NOT designed to do. Most of the problems plaguing your city were caused by residents themselves, not the administration.

Originally Posted by weluvpa

Sure there are mounatins and their outdoor activities but thats it.

Have you forgotten the following, which is just a sampling of what you may find within a half-hour's drive of Scranton:

Electric City Trolley Museum
Everhart Museum (Art)
F.M. Kirby Center (Theatre)
Houdini Museum (Magic)
Ice Box (Indoor Recreation)
Lackawanna Coal Mine Tour
PNC Field (Yankees)
Scranton Cultural Center (Theatre)
Sno Cove (Water Park)
Steamtown National Historic Site
Swetland Homestead
Toyota Pavillion (Concerts)
Universities (Lectures, seminars, etc.)
Wachovia Arena (Penguins, Pioneers, concerts, shows, expos, etc.)
Wyoming Valley Sports Dome (Indoor Recreation)

Originally Posted by weluvpa

The problem with the city is the admin period.

Prove it. Period.

Originally Posted by weluvpa

There have been no major events held in the downtown for a while and the last one at the CYC was last year around Valentines day and it was a mess for parking, for police and just a screw up.

Did the following just fly out of my ass:

Armed Services Parade
First Fridays
First Night: Scranton
La Festa Italiana
Race for the Cure
Saint Patrick's Day Parade
Santa Parade
Scranton Jazz Festival
Scranton Jewish Film Festival
State Mayor Conference
Steamtown Marathon
"The Office" Convention

Originally Posted by weluvpa

I'm sure Paul will site the Office convention and well we'll see if it happens again.

I know you think the convention was a waste, but you can't blame a soggy weekend and poor last-minute event planning on the city's administration. Every visitor to the city I spoke with at the convention had a wonderful time, and many complimented the city for its cleanliness, friendliness, architecture, history, etc. You can't put a price tag on the "spin-off" effects that convention has had and will have in the future based on positive publicity.

For example:

Bill & Joan Kingsley from Scotch Plains, NJ were "Dunderheads" who agreed with the notion that "There Ain't No Party Like a Scranton Party 'Cuz a Scranton Party Don't Stop" as first-time visitors. They return to Scotch Plains and tell six other couples about their wonderful weekend. Three of those couples---the Lubecs, the Tontinos, and the Beckers---decide to scope out Scranton---one for La Festa Italiana, one for the St. Patrick's Day Parade, and one for a Steamtown train excursion. All three of these couples had a wonderful time and return to Northern New Jersey to each tell six other couples about their wonderful experience. Out of those 18 couples that enjoyed hearing about their friends' weekend getaways to Scranton, perhaps five visit Scranton in the future to scope it out. These five then each tell six other couples, radiating into 30 new couples learning about the city. Just that one couple, the Kingsley's, who visited the city for the convention, translated into long-term positive press over the basis of a couple of years in luring many more people to the city. Each of those couples pumps money into the city's economy, meaning that the $15,000 or whatever the city invested into the convention is paying back dividends in terms of creating a "buzz" for others to scope it out.

Then again, I know the Legion of Doom has a hard time admitting that any long-term positive benefits be derived from anything that Mayor Doherty was even indirectly involved in.

Originally Posted by weluvpa

Your right there is nothing coming to the city. The entertainment will now be at the Kirby or the amphitheater on Montage mt.

RE: Prove it. Period.

Originally Posted by weluvpa

People themselves want more from our area then it is because they have this insane idea that we are a suburb of Jersey and need to have what they do and well you get what you wish for. With that sprawl comes the traffic. The poconos of old are gone and now just a western slum for NYC and NJ and Scranton is on its way there right now. Our housing market is in the toilet and ripe for the slumlords to come in and get it up and running as a NYC,NJ slum rentat heaven. Just look at Southside and check to see how many out of state landowners there are. They want the "culture" of NYC but they don't want the scum well the scum is what will come first long before the culture. Look at the area around Stroudsburg and Tannersville, Gouldsboro and see how much it has changed for the worse over the last 10-15 years. North Pocono went from being a quite rural school district to be a crime ridden ghetto esque school with metal detectors at the doors. The NYC,NJ sprawl is on its way to Scranton faster then you know and the housing market is going to fuel it along with our areas attachment to section 8 and low income housing. The train will certainly add to it more then it will ever be a positive to our area. You want this to change then speak up, but as long as everyone allows the status quo to move ahead unchecked then we will get what some wish for. I for one don't see anyway to avoid it. Scranton will be the next Patterson NJ and there is nothing we can do to stop if no wants to speak out about it.

Scranton will inevitably become the outermost exurb of New York City/Northern New Jersey, whether you like it nor not. Pike County is now officially considered to be part of the New York City CSA as per the U.S. Census Bureau, and it is no longer part of the local television market for Scranton/Wilkes-Barre since Nielsen polling indicated that most residents there tune back into NYC/NJ stations for their news. Over 10,000 residents of Monroe County commute daily into NYC/NJ for work, clogging I-80. I consider myself heavily-seasoned in urban planning and population shifts, and if this trend continues Monroe County will also be officially annexed as being part of the NYC CSA, just as Pike County was, between 2010 and 2020. I don't know if folks here realize it or not, but doing so would officially mean that the boundaries of the Wilkes-Barre Area School District adjoined the boundaries of the NYC CSA! One could literally live in Blakeslee or Greentown and say they are part of the New York City metropolitan area, even though both communities are perhaps 25 minutes from Wilkes-Barre and Scranton, respectively.

I'm taking a "wait-and-see" approach to what will happen in the long-term for Lackawanna and Luzerne Counties, both of which are growing again in population after many decades of steady decline. Something Corey O'Brien and Mike Washo need to be very wary of in Lackawanna County is long-term land usage policy. Oregon, Lexington, KY, and other parts of our nation have successfully implemented "urban growth boundaries" to preserve open space and encourage infill development in established cities and boroughs, and I feel as if Lackawanna County should consider the same. I'm well-seasoned with your county's planning procedures, and you currently have four zones:

-Abingtons (Clarks Summit, Waverly, Newton/Ransom, Scott Twp.)
-Mid-Valley/Upvalley (Dickson City northeastwards to Vandling)
-North Pocono (North Pocono School District)
-Scranton/Downvalley (Scranton, Dunmore, and the Tri-Boroughs)

North Pocono is by far the most heavily-threatened zone in the coming years for sprawl, yet you're not hearing a peep out of anyone about how they plan to account for new residential growth in the coming years. Hell, residents themselves are even delusional because they opposed construction of a new high school that would be required anyways in a few years if population projections continue their upward trajectory. Instead of placing blame upon clueless township supervisors and land developers, they made scapegoats out of the school board, who were simply the "messengers" in forecasting this growth and RESPONSIBLY trying to plan ahead for it so that students wouldn't be forced to meet in trailers, as did occur in Monroe County.

From my standpoint Moscow Borough should officially be designated as a "downtown" for this region, and more funds should be invested to make it attractive (wider, level sidewalks, tree lawns, Victorian-era street lighting, benches, etc.). Daleville Corners (near Shop-Rite) should be designated as the only region appropriate for future development of large-scale commercial growth (I can already see a Wal-Mart moving here in the future). New housing developments should have to meet stringent requirements for minimum lot sizes, open space, sidewalks, curbing, street lighting, etc. Folks in North Pocono can continue to be morons who stick their heads in the sand saying "Tobyhanna can't happen here," or they can be PRO-ACTIVE in finally realizing "Yes. It most certainly CAN happn here" and start pushing their township supervisors to appropriately address future growth. I'm already watching in amazement just how rapidly lots in Summit Woods, a new development in North Pocono, are selling just after it hit the market, indicating that demand for subdivision lots in this school district is red hot if it can remain strong despite the onset of a national recession.

Scranton doesn't have to be "Paterson." It can very easily be "Hoboken." The problem is that Scrantonians themselves don't want this to occur because that would lead to gentrification, which would lead to higher housing prices that they wouldn't be able to afford on their Wal-Mart wages. Scranton could become a giant urban ghetto with sprawl all around it by 2050, or it could become a thriving yuppie hot-spot with diminished sprawl demand. Judging by folks like Sam Patilla, Andy Sbaraglia, Ozzie Quinn, Fay Franus, Les Spindler, etc., the vast majority of residents in Scranton would PREFER to see it become a ghetto simply so they could afford it. This goes back to the mentality I HATE of "I can't get ahead so I'll keep the other guy down so I won't look so badly." (hence the teacher-bashing in NEPA). You can see this already with people bashing Northern Lights, Lavish, Anthology, Brixx, and other downtown businesses simply because they can't afford to patronize them. That doesn't mean that they should close when others CAN visibly afford to enjoy them. I refuse to have people in Scranton spewing out that they want the city to fall flat on its face because they're afraid of progress and change. If they want Scranton to erode into Paterson, then they can have it. If they want Scranton to evolve into Hoboken, then that is possible as well if they would stop with their petty mindsets of "Jimmy got a bigger piece of cake than I did. WAHHHH!!!"

[weluvpa]

It was not the chief that made the public statement but the union president. An example would be if a boyfriend stabbed his girlfriend in a fight it would be classified as a domestic instead of a stabbing. If a husband was to shot his wife they would classify it as a domestic. I don't have to prove that the admin is responsible for the current state of the city they have done that on their own by looking at what has actually been done here and the amount of monies that have been spent to get it there it is very clear that they have driven this city into the ground in debt and the overall conditions of the neighborhoods. Again with the museums, they are great if you have not already been there and done that twenty times over. Lectures are not entertaining to the masses Paul and the number of people that might attend a lecture at the U is pale in comparison to the rest of the city. What makes you think that the residents in this area not just Scranton want this city to be Hoboken? Why would they? I like you Paul and I think your a smart kid but you cannot experience the world and pretend that you know oh so much about it from the net. You need to get out there and see the world and different areas in order to sell them. How much time have you really spent in NJ or NY? How much time have spent in Hoboken or Patterson? Its just not as clear cut case of black and white like you want it to be. The mentality of the area is fine if they do not want to have this city turned into something they do not want. Sure you want it but does the rest of the city? Do you really think that the residents here want to live in little Hoboken? I would rather have Boulder or Annapolis. Its just your vision and you continuesly feel that you have to shove what you think is good for this city down the throats of those that live here. I do not want Hoboken, I have lived in NJ and I have lived in other cities and I can tell this I do not want to have that kind of a city to live in here. Maybe you need to get out of the area then see what the rest of the world needs to deal with and then come home. You base your opinions on the net and whatever little facts that you could bring up. You remind me of an engineer that has book smarts but has no practical experience on the how and why something happens. The books tell you that this is how it should be and its not. Experience would tell him that the other factors com into play and that the book is merely a guide.
You can knock the legion of doom and the members or speakers that you like to rail on but guess what buddy they all have jobs and they all work hard and they all pay taxes and have properties here in Scranton, DO YOU? They have the right as residents of this city to complain or support whatever they want while you sit at home in the comfort of your parents house and complain about our city and what the residents try to get done or complain about. Sure your going to say that this is what I go back to all the time but I only do it when you seem to know whats best for us? YOU HAVE NO STANDING when it comes to telling the residents of the city that they are right or wrong in what they want for their city and thier families. You need to get out of the nest and go to grad school outside the area and if you survive then come home and buy a house and tell us how the real world is.