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Old 06-27-2011, 04:24 PM
 
Location: Rocking the 609
363 posts, read 539,510 times
Reputation: 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trucker7 View Post
You must be confusing the RiverLine. It goes between Camden and Trenton in South Jersey.
Nope, I was talking about the Raritan Valley Line (RVL) - this is the line that runs only into Newark Penn as it's all diesel. I've taken it from Union (the station before Penn) and it always seemed to take a ridiculously long amount of time. It was maddeningly slow - although as I said upthread not as bad as the NJCL (New Jersey Coast Line).

I do agree that the Riverline really doesn't go through "rural" areas. Sure, the areas between Trenton and Camden aren't massively populated but it's far from rural (which I consider Wyoming County, PA to be.)
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Old 08-03-2011, 06:05 PM
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna.
3,708 posts, read 1,523,056 times
Reputation: 3692
For starters, I'll 'fess up. I like railroading; have been around it all my life, but the last passenger train left my home town of Berwick in 1953. By the time I statrted travelling independently in the mid-1960's it was still possible to catch a commuter train into Philadelphia from Bethlehem or Reading, or you could drive into Jersey, stash the car at a suburban stop, and ride into Manhattan without the hassle. Unfortunattely, short-sight cut the former Reading Lines' SEPTA service back considerably during the early 1980's

Too many people of my age group, the "baby boom" generation, stiill haven't realized that the freight railroads stabilized and reversed their decline in market share about 25 years ago, with no goverment aid other than the temporary measure of Conrail (which recouped much of that investment by selling the streamlined system back to private operators). Or that Los Angeles, Dallas and Northern Virginia have launched successful commuter operaios over the same time frame.

If Allentown were on the other side of the state line, New Jersry DOT would have returned commuter service to the Lehigh Valley a long time ago. But the presence of a state boundary invariably complicates things. And it will be interesting to see how many cars with Pennsylvania plates show up in the parking lot when NJT begins service to Andover ... not all that far from Stroudsburg.

Buses competitive with commuter rail? If they were, people in the Poconos wouldn't rise in Stygian darkness to catch a 5 AM Martz departure.

But having said that, only the most simplistic and demagogic of free-market advocates wouldn't concede that the heavy (and immovable) investment and fickle winds of politics make rail passenger service an impossiblilty for private capital. And the unfortunte fact is that the development of "true" High Speed Rail altrernatives was hijacked onto one side of the polartized, partisan debate that continues to infensify. Sensible pragmatists will now have to pay the price for the overzealous hype of Barry-O's Childrens' Crusade.

Over thirty years ago, The late David P. Morgan, editor of the hobbyist magazine Trains and often cited as the most articulate railroad journmalist not affiliated directly with the industry, opined that "Somewhere, within all that waste, an efficient (freight) transport system is struggling to get out", How right he was! And the same will, sonner or later, be proven true for intermediate-distance passngers, as surely as the price of petroleum wil continue to rise.
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Old 08-03-2011, 07:55 PM
 
Location: Scranton
1,266 posts, read 1,401,451 times
Reputation: 1372
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
If Allentown were on the other side of the state line, New Jersry DOT would have returned commuter service to the Lehigh Valley a long time ago. But the presence of a state boundary invariably complicates things. And it will be interesting to see how many cars with Pennsylvania plates show up in the parking lot when NJT begins service to Andover ... not all that far from Stroudsburg.

Buses competitive with commuter rail? If they were, people in the Poconos wouldn't rise in Stygian darkness to catch a 5 AM Martz departure.
There are many reasons why NJ taxes are sky high and mass transit is one of them. Any passenger rail in NEPA will end up being subsidized by the government, which in turn will raise taxes on its people, whether they ride the train or not. If Martz were to receive the same amount of subsidizes that the train will inevitably get, they could sell fares to NYC for five bucks.
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Old 08-03-2011, 11:00 PM
 
Location: Rocking the 609
363 posts, read 539,510 times
Reputation: 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
If Allentown were on the other side of the state line, New Jersry DOT would have returned commuter service to the Lehigh Valley a long time ago. But the presence of a state boundary invariably complicates things. And it will be interesting to see how many cars with Pennsylvania plates show up in the parking lot when NJT begins service to Andover ... not all that far from Stroudsburg.
It's not NJ's responsibility or place to build railroads in other states - particularly when NJ Transit is in a financial mess and keeps raising fares.

Like what was said up-thread - a lot of my (sky-high) taxes go toward rail projects in the state. Which is partially why I have an express train to midtown at rush hour from way out in the Princeton area and it costs less for a monthly pass than a Martz pass from the Poconos.
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Old 08-04-2011, 01:56 AM
 
Location: On the Rails in Northern NJ
12,336 posts, read 13,260,435 times
Reputation: 4241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trucker7 View Post
There are many reasons why NJ taxes are sky high and mass transit is one of them. Any passenger rail in NEPA will end up being subsidized by the government, which in turn will raise taxes on its people, whether they ride the train or not. If Martz were to receive the same amount of subsidizes that the train will inevitably get, they could sell fares to NYC for five bucks.
THe Schools are the reason why are taxes are high and the lack of shared services... Our Mass Transit budget is still half that of our Road budget and always has been.... The Gas Tax is divided into 2 in NJ , CT and MA to pay for Road and Rail. I doubt taxes will go up all over NEPA , but in communities where the Rail gets restored to they will. Due to Dense growth....other things... MARTZ is very afraid of what NJT would due to there service , which is destroy half the ridership , mostly to NYC and to a New Employment base in Morris County.
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Old 08-04-2011, 01:59 AM
 
Location: On the Rails in Northern NJ
12,336 posts, read 13,260,435 times
Reputation: 4241
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyflower7 View Post
It's not NJ's responsibility or place to build railroads in other states - particularly when NJ Transit is in a financial mess and keeps raising fares.

Like what was said up-thread - a lot of my (sky-high) taxes go toward rail projects in the state. Which is partially why I have an express train to midtown at rush hour from way out in the Princeton area and it costs less for a monthly pass than a Martz pass from the Poconos.
They do not , they go towards the Schools and local Govts. Your Gas tax goes to Mass Transit which is used by 1.8 Million in NJ. Property Taxes should go towards Mass Transit / Roads in this state....then we would have gold plated Infastrature.
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Old 08-04-2011, 02:05 AM
 
Location: On the Rails in Northern NJ
12,336 posts, read 13,260,435 times
Reputation: 4241
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
For starters, I'll 'fess up. I like railroading; have been around it all my life, but the last passenger train left my home town of Berwick in 1953. By the time I statrted travelling independently in the mid-1960's it was still possible to catch a commuter train into Philadelphia from Bethlehem or Reading, or you could drive into Jersey, stash the car at a suburban stop, and ride into Manhattan without the hassle. Unfortunattely, short-sight cut the former Reading Lines' SEPTA service back considerably during the early 1980's

Too many people of my age group, the "baby boom" generation, stiill haven't realized that the freight railroads stabilized and reversed their decline in market share about 25 years ago, with no goverment aid other than the temporary measure of Conrail (which recouped much of that investment by selling the streamlined system back to private operators). Or that Los Angeles, Dallas and Northern Virginia have launched successful commuter operaios over the same time frame.

If Allentown were on the other side of the state line, New Jersry DOT would have returned commuter service to the Lehigh Valley a long time ago. But the presence of a state boundary invariably complicates things. And it will be interesting to see how many cars with Pennsylvania plates show up in the parking lot when NJT begins service to Andover ... not all that far from Stroudsburg.

Buses competitive with commuter rail? If they were, people in the Poconos wouldn't rise in Stygian darkness to catch a 5 AM Martz departure.

But having said that, only the most simplistic and demagogic of free-market advocates wouldn't concede that the heavy (and immovable) investment and fickle winds of politics make rail passenger service an impossiblilty for private capital. And the unfortunte fact is that the development of "true" High Speed Rail altrernatives was hijacked onto one side of the polartized, partisan debate that continues to infensify. Sensible pragmatists will now have to pay the price for the overzealous hype of Barry-O's Childrens' Crusade.

Over thirty years ago, The late David P. Morgan, editor of the hobbyist magazine Trains and often cited as the most articulate railroad journmalist not affiliated directly with the industry, opined that "Somewhere, within all that waste, an efficient (freight) transport system is struggling to get out", How right he was! And the same will, sonner or later, be proven true for intermediate-distance passngers, as surely as the price of petroleum wil continue to rise.
There causing issues along the Raritan Valley line , so much that a few counties are pushing or trying fast Track the Philpsburg connections to lessen the strain on I-78 and the RVL Parking lots. The Philpsburg connections would restore 3 lines from Philpsburg Eastward to Flemington , Morris County and the Raritan Valley line at a cost of 350 Million and 12 new stations or restored stations with 70 miles of trackage. I don't think the Andover station will get many PA plates , but the Blairstown station might. Hopefully that will signal PA to get there act together with there side.
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Old 08-04-2011, 04:25 AM
 
Location: Scranton
1,266 posts, read 1,401,451 times
Reputation: 1372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey View Post
MARTZ is very afraid of what NJT would due to there service , which is destroy half the ridership , mostly to NYC and to a New Employment base in Morris County.
So, why would PA taxpayers subsidize a NJ state agency and destroy a local NEPA company? The only reason why NJT will take half the ridership is because train fares will be subsidized and Martz won't be able to compete with that.
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Old 08-04-2011, 06:45 AM
 
Location: On the Rails in Northern NJ
12,336 posts, read 13,260,435 times
Reputation: 4241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trucker7 View Post
So, why would PA taxpayers subsidize a NJ state agency and destroy a local NEPA company? The only reason why NJT will take half the ridership is because train fares will be subsidized and Martz won't be able to compete with that.
No we wouldn't subsidize your train , a New agency formed by Penndot will operate your trains. Using NJT trains , i beleave the fares will be capped at 20$ from Scranton and then go down to 15$ by the NJ border. We in NJ and NY need to free up space at our bus terminals and the growing number of buses isn't helping that so Rail is a better and cheaper alt for all states... Most of the costly things will be on the Jersey side , so you have nothing to worry about in terms of costs. This will be a good project , if done right , or it can be a horrible project if done wrong. But I don't see any real reason why it shouldn't be built , there is enough demand and support on the PA side , although opposition is coming from the ECO-Freaks aka Tree Huggers...but they can be Railroaded Ever format of Transportation is subsidized , Roads , Rails , Airports....Ports. I don't see why everyone makes a big stink out of Rail being subsidized When Roads are heavily subsidized? The Gas Tax and Tolls don't even cover half of it , and this is in all states.... As for Martz's Demise you never know , the other bus company's of this region have survived the Rail Expansion / Restoration by connecting the towns / cities off the corridor to the stations..... So Martz might not die , but grow larger... PPP's are the key to this project not costing the tax payers anything or very few $$. PA just started using PPP's...
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Old 08-04-2011, 03:05 PM
 
Location: Drama Central
4,084 posts, read 5,686,871 times
Reputation: 1845
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey View Post
But I don't see any real reason why it shouldn't be built , there is enough demand and support on the PA side
I don't see any "real demand" on this side and certainly don't see enough support to warrant the cost of what needs to be done to get this completed.

There is no money in the budgets for what we need, never mind this.

If people want to move to PA and commute then do it, I did it for many years and to be honest I would not have taken the train. I actually enjoyed the peace and quiet of the car.....It was 4 hours out everyday that I didn't have to talk to or listen to anyone if I didn't want to.

If the traffic is too much for them, then they should live closer to work. Why would or should we build a rail service to supply transportation to people that work out of state?
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