If things are so bad in NEPA, why do people stay? (Scranton: environment, loans)

[lilangelbaby0099]

I have lived here my entire life. My family has been here for generations. The reason people stay is becuase there comfortable. My family hates this area and wants to get out. I like my little down of shickshinny but its so depressing. My husband was here for 9 months and had to go back home to take a job becuae all the jobs that he could get would only pay 8 dollars an hour. So there is a major lack of jobs. I work in the social servie relm of nepa and there are soooooooo many people living in poverty. Its a such a problem. There is not enough jobs to go around. I know living in the county people are very unfriendy and do not want to be bothered and most of the time are living in poverty but can't even make it up to places like wilkes barre to get help. I live 30 minuets away from any town or city and the price of gas is high. I go to misericordia univeristy and was even told when i graduate there are not jobs in my field. Right now alot of my friends who have a degree are only getting paid at most 19,000 a year to do children and youth or other social serice jobs. So i like this area, but my biggest thing is the jobs everyone i n my family stuggles to make ends meet, Also wikes barre is nothing great at all. I work there and have fallen on the sidewalks and we have to keep our bathrooms locked for fear of drug users coming in our office. Wilkes barre is very racist and a bad area. I try not to go there for to many things. Bloomsburg on the other had is nice. I though am moving out of the area come august to the Tidewater area in chesapeake. Also pa is the second when it comes to having the most poverty in a state. Thats quite the reality of nepa.... its so sad!

[sues1]

This area is going to continue to grow with the overflow flow from NY/NJ/Philly and most of that growth is of the good variety. If we keep working on clearing the blight and policing the area we will start stemming the tide of druggies and prostitutes. The valley is on it's way back to greatness.

I must be looking somewhere else because when i read the paper or turn on the news and see that there has been a drug bust, it's usually people from the NY/Philly area. I hardly call that "good variety"

[loveinbloom]

Originally Posted by sues1

I must be looking somewhere else because when i read the paper or turn on the news and see that there has been a drug bust, it's usually people from the NY/Philly area. I hardly call that "good variety"

I believe you feel that the NY'ers (and former Philly folks) are the core of the problem because usually ONLY bad news is reported and printed. This is a sad aspect for OUR entire country. You will not hear about the positives of new residents because like most we are simply living our lives and tend not to make headlines for that. As I have stated before if there wasn't a local market for drugs...drug dealers would set up "businesses" elsewhere.

I must at admit I am offended with the constant generalizatons/sterotypes of myself and former statesmen. While there is usually A GRAIN OF TRUTH to the above...that purely is all that it is.

I moved here for extended family, natural beauty and the affordaiblity.Folks from this area that feel the above are/can be missing out on some wonderful new neighbors and potential friends.

I am stepping of the soap box now~

[greentown]

Originally Posted by lilangelbaby0099

I have lived here my entire life. My family has been here for generations. The reason people stay is becuase there comfortable. My family hates this area and wants to get out. I like my little down of shickshinny but its so depressing. My husband was here for 9 months and had to go back home to take a job becuae all the jobs that he could get would only pay 8 dollars an hour. So there is a major lack of jobs. I work in the social servie relm of nepa and there are soooooooo many people living in poverty. Its a such a problem. There is not enough jobs to go around. I know living in the county people are very unfriendy and do not want to be bothered and most of the time are living in poverty but can't even make it up to places like wilkes barre to get help. I live 30 minuets away from any town or city and the price of gas is high. I go to misericordia univeristy and was even told when i graduate there are not jobs in my field. Right now alot of my friends who have a degree are only getting paid at most 19,000 a year to do children and youth or other social serice jobs. So i like this area, but my biggest thing is the jobs everyone i n my family stuggles to make ends meet, Also wikes barre is nothing great at all. I work there and have fallen on the sidewalks and we have to keep our bathrooms locked for fear of drug users coming in our office. Wilkes barre is very racist and a bad area. I try not to go there for to many things. Bloomsburg on the other had is nice. I though am moving out of the area come august to the Tidewater area in chesapeake. Also pa is the second when it comes to having the most poverty in a state. Thats quite the reality of nepa.... its so sad!

I'm not trying to be mean for asking this question, but why are you getting a degree in a field in which there are no jobs? It seems crazy to waste the money to go to college when you already know you won't be getting a job.

[ScranBarre]

Originally Posted by SWB

Could these people who are "not working" that you have referenced not have any marketable skills, degrees, etc.?

I'm sorry to see so many people took this comment out of context, but I finally have a brief amount of time to clarify my position. Several of you thought I was "bashing" people who don't hold college degrees. Nothing could be further from the truth. I know of a woman with her Ph.D. who works for a local school district who has single-handedly destroyed scholarship applications for some students because of her ineptitude. On the same token I know of some elderly gentlemen who dropped out of high school to serve our nation valiantly in time of war and garner nothing but the utmost respect from me as a result.

I'm referring to people who are in their senior year of high school on a regular academic track, have no future plans, and just assume they are "owed" a well-compensating job because they have a "strong work ethic" and nothing more. That might have been acceptable in the year 1980 when companies like Techneglas, for example, were hiring fresh high school graduates left and right and paying them family-sustaining wages, but this is now the year 2008, and times have most certainly changed.

It doesn't necessarily take much (if any) family wealth to pursue specializations that will make yourselves more marketable to employers. I have a friend who went to Allied for massage therapy training and now earns a modest, comfortable living as a massage therapist. I know of some others from my alma mater who went through the vocational-techinical track in high school, acquired manual skills, apprenticed at local firms, and are now employed as electricians, welders, auto mechanics, plumbers, etc. My one friend is going through nursing school to be an LPN. There are places like ITT Tech in Dunmore that permit even middle-aged people to attend night classes to learn a new skill that will permit them to move up socioeconomically.

Call me an elitist, but if you just graduate with a high school diploma without any technical/vocational training, apprenticeships, internships, college aspirations, etc., then you do NOT deserve to be spoon-fed a position that will permit you to "make the big bucks." What then would be the incentive for the rest of us to dig ourselves tens of thousands of dollars into debt to further our educations? It's called capitalism, folks. Charles Darwin called it "survival of the fittest." The reason why wages locally lag so far behind the rest of the state and nation is because we have an ABYSMALLY low percentage of those with an education. High-paying firms are reluctant to relocate into areas where the workforce isn't adequately trained or skilled to fit their qualifications, hence why we have such a dearth locally of I/T, financial services, pharmaceutical, etc. types of industries (i.e. "the big buck places")

Every once in a while you'll hear of someone who is doing great right out of high school without any sort of training, apprenticing, etc. due to their own entrepreneurial spirits (Louis DeNaples comes to mind), but by and large the more education you receive, the more money you'll typically earn over the course of your lifetime.

The U.S. Census Bureau backs up my claims as well:

A person's level of education is a predictor of earnings---the more education, the larger the earnings potential. In 2006 the median earnings for men who were not high school graduates were $22,151. This increased to $31,715 for male high school graduates and to $40,217 for men with some college or an associate's degree. Men who completed college and earned a Bachelor's Degree earned a median of $55,446. The highest median earnings, $73,991, were for men with a graduate or professional degree.

As such I don't know why people attacked the messenger here. I'm not saying everyone should go to college. What I'm saying is that one's earnings potential is USUALLY directly related to their educational background. A man with a Master's Degree earns around 2.5 times what a man who was a high school dropout earns. That's factually derived; I didn't just make this up because I'm an elitist. As such it stands to reason that the wealthiest U.S. states (NJ, CT, MD, etc.) are also the states with the most highly educated residents. If you want wages overall to rise in our region, then you'll have to hope to see our census figures brighten.

Here's how we stacked up in 2006:

For population aged 25 and over:

U.S.
Percentage of population with a high school diploma or higher: 84.1%
Percentage of population with a bachelor's degree or higher: 27.0%

PA
Percentage of population with a high school diploma or higher: 86.2%
Percentage of population with a bachelor's degree or higher: 25.4%

Lackawanna County (Scranton/Abington/Carbondale Area)
Percentage of population with a high school diploma or higher: 87.2%
Percentage of population with a bachelor's degree or higher: 22.4%

Luzerne County (Wyoming Valley/Back Mountain/Hazleton)
Percentage of population with a high school diploma or higher: 86.9%
Percentage of population with a bachelor's degree or higher: 19.5%

It's interesting to note that we actually have a higher percentage of residents with high school diplomas that both the state and nation, which I attribute to our strong local Roman Catholic orientation and focus on parochial schooling. Unfortunately we still lag severely when it comes to college degrees. Say what you will, but if a firm had the option of moving to Luzerne County, where less than 1/5 of those over 25 had a degree or to, per se, Montgomery County (Philly 'burbs), where nearly half of adults hold a degree, where do you think they'd choose? Any savings from locating here to reduce their operational costs might be negated by extra training costs, so there's truly no "edge" for a high-tech, well-compensating firm (PwC, Wyeth, Goldman Sachs, Merck, Microsoft, etc.) to move here. Instead all we receive, as we've seen thus far with the oft-championed CenterPoint facility in Pittston Township, are positions for packagers, assemblers, forklift operators, sorters, etc. with wages of $10/hr. Not good, NEPA!

You know it's a bad sign when our local colleges (including my own) exclusively recruit for out-of-area firms. As an accounting student at King's I have to forge out on my own, as our college is only concerned with PwC, Reznick, E&Y, Deloitte & Touche, and other major firms outside of the region. That tells you something when our own colleges don't believe in the future of our region, doesn't it?

[ScranBarre]

Originally Posted by greentown

I'm not trying to be mean for asking this question, but why are you getting a degree in a field in which there are no jobs? It seems crazy to waste the money to go to college when you already know you won't be getting a job.

It's not a "mean" question at all. This is a very pertinent one. My true passion in life is urban and regional planning, but I know the odds of me securing a position in our region as an urban planner are probably about as slim as prying Louie Andersen away from the Old Country Buffet. This is why I left my calling to become a CPA. I know accounting positions are available in NEPA, and I am confident that even during our upcoming recession I'll be able to secure employment in this field here. I also know that most who were in the class prior to my own who have just landed positions are earning $40,000 in our area, so I'll ask for a starting salary of $42,000 when I graduate in the middle of next year, adjusting for inflation.

A lot of my friends are majoring in the I/T field and are likewise griping about the job market locally. Employment is a case of supply and demand. In certain areas of the nation (especially the Sunbelt/border states), techers are in VERY high demand. In our area there is an oversaturation of educators due to our stagnant, aging population. In our area there is a dearth of skilled manual laborers (contractors, electricians, roofers, etc.), which is why I'm a huge proponent of vo-tech programs in high schools to give students their "leg in the door" to well-paying (albeit physically-demanding) careers. I myself wouldn't mind bartering in the future to prepare someone's taxes and/or offer them financial expertise in exchange for them to install a toilet for me or to change my oil. When you specialize in something, people are willing to pay you a premium for your services. I wouldn't want someone with an eighth-grade education operating on my heart, hence why I'm willing to shell out several thousand to a well-trained surgeon to perform an operation on me.

The problem with NEPA is far too many people think they're worth more than they truly are. There are a lot of "Joe Nobodys" here (many of whom work for Luzerne County may I add), who think that they are "entitled" to $50k positions due to their surname, attitude, and very little else. That wouldn't cut it in the adjacent BosWash area (NYC, NJ, Lehigh Valley, Philly), so why would it cut it here? A home is only worth as much as a prospective buyer is willing to pay for it. Similarly, an employee is only worthy of as much compensation as an employer deems to be appropriate (adhering to Federal regulations, of course). I never saw an area (besides perhaps Michigan) where blue-collars DEMAND so much from their employers and have such a "gimme" attitude towards local government; I suppose you almost can't blame Hershey, IBM, etc. for leaving Pennsylvania when workers create such a hostile environment.

[ScranBarre]

Originally Posted by Chefkey

Jobwise, there does need to be an increase but I have lobbied since I've been here that we need to entice big white collar companies to place offices here.

This area overall needs to strive to make itself more friendly to new business ventures. I'd have to gander that some of the most popular reasons why a company would ponder moving to a new area would be cost of operations (how profitable can we be here as compared to where we're coming from?), workforce quality (will the locals have the degrees/specializations necessary to fill our ranks, or will we have to fork over huge sums to train them?), quality-of-life (are we moving to an area that offers enough amenities, recreation, quality education, low crime, etc. to retain our workers and keep them happy in the long-term?), location (how will this new area place our company strategically and geographically in relation to our competitors), and tax structure (will it be worth having our employees pay a 3.4% city wage tax to live in Scranton as opposed to the 0% they're currently paying in "XYZ" city?)

In my humble opinion we already have quality-of-life covered with an A+ thanks to our beautiful state parks, great schools, moderate congestion, low violent crime, ski resorts, casinos, minor-league sports, Philharmonic, ethnic dining options, high-end shopping, etc. We also have an A+ for location, since we're just two hours or so from major population centers in NYC and Philadelphia. When it comes to tax structure we probably get a resounding D or D-. Property taxes here are MUCH less expensive than they are in NJ/NY, contrary to what Dan says (a boon), but local municipalities nickel-and-dime you to death with all sorts of other taxes (an obvious burden). We'll probably get a C+ for workforce quality. I notice a very strong work ethic here that was passed down generationally from our coal mining ancestry, but these very hard workers are largely uneducated. You can be an Energizer bunny with a smile on your face, but if you don't have at least a Bachelor's Degree you won't have any shot of getting your foot in the door of most white-collar companies. As I pointed out earlier just under 1/3 of the nation's adults have at least a Bachelor's Degree while that number is about 1/5 in our metroplex. That's not very good at all. Finally, we'll probably rank with a B- for cost of operations. Yes, the tax structure might be burdensome, but companies moving here can still enjoy paying we underlings much less than what we'd earn just an hour away in the BosWash Corridor.

Originally Posted by Chefkey

I plan to ask the Mayors of the area about this and keep the area growing.

I hope you don't plan to do so at a city council meeting. As we see with Scranton the residents by and large do NOT want "progress" of the nature you and I are proposing. Mayor Doherty, while spending like a drunken idiot and dooming future generations due to his fiscal irresponsibility, "got it" in terms of trying to make Scranton look trendy, sophisticated, hip, etc. in hopes that a white-collar revolution would follow (and eventually those lucrative career opportunities of course). Scranton has never looked better (on the surface) during my relatively brief tenure here, and I'm hearing a lot of folks here in Luzerne County benchmarking Wilkes-Barre's apparent progress to Scranton with envy. The one GOOD thing that Mayor Doherty has done for Scranton is that he has boosted its image tremendously. In 1995 there might have been very few "boosters" in the city. Now there are many more besides myself (even though NONE ever back me up on this forum. )

There's a noticeable class divide in our region. Sam Patilla and a few others in Scranton always make incensed statements about the "creative class" and how they "threaten" Scranton, and as we can see on Doherty Deceit, many folks think there is an Irish-Catholic Network (ICN) running amok in Scranton that is attempting to transform Scranton into a white-collar mecca. I myself realize that Scranton has blue-collar roots that should be prized, but if it wants to compete in 2008 it NEEDS a white-collar element as well, something it currently does NOT have (the nuevo riche yuppies in the Abingtons and Greater Pittston don't count). Scranton used to have a decent-sized white-collar population, as evidenced by the elegant homes I've photographed in Green Ridge and The Hill, but now most white-collar families have fled to suburban enclaves, leaving the city overall very impoverished as a result (just look at the Census if you need affirmation to that statement).

Originally Posted by Chefkey

People are moving in droves from the New York, Jersey, Philly area to here and it will bring NEPA forward into a new day.

I agree that the best way to restore our area is to convince more folks from NYC/NJ/SEPA to come here and trade the rat race for safe streets, affordable housing, good schools, etc. Enough have finally begun moving here that our population has grown in Scranton/Wilkes-Barre for the past several years now, but we need to keep that momentum moving. We need more "cheerleaders" on this forum to convince the NYC/NJ/SEPA crowd that NEPA is indeed a viable alternative to the "promised land" of Raleigh.

Originally Posted by Chefkey

The area will flourish and prosper. Let's all keep it upbeat and move forward.
Peace to All

I know long-term the area will flourish. We're next-in-line for a massive wave of growth. The Lehigh Valley and Poconos are beginning to fill themselves up and price themselves out with the commuter transplants who have driven up housing prices, property taxes, and have congested Routes 22, 78, 209, 611, 80, etc., and it's only a matter of time before this growth spills into Scranton/Wilkes-Barre/Hazleton also, hence why I'm a huge proponent of the proposed commuter rail linking NEPA to Hoboken, NJ (and then onwards to NYC via the PATH). I also think a rail line extending from NEPA to Philly via Allentown would be a huge success. I'm 21 so I have the luxury of time to wait around for this to materialize. Moscow transitioned from rural hamlet to suburban enclave overnight with the advent of Harmony Hills, and Pocono Mountain exploded from country living to having a school district larger than Scranton's within a few years. I predict Bear Creek will become a booming suburb along the lines of the Back Mountain also within the next decade. That same growth can come pouring over the county lines into Scranton/Wilkes-Barre in another five, ten, or twenty years from now. "When" is the ultimate question. Peace to you as well, my friend!

[ScranBarre]

I'm aware that one need not be "wealthy" to afford a BMW, Lexus, Audi, etc., as these have indeed become our middle-class cars anymore. I think Jaguar was briefly running a promotion a few years ago for a $299/month lease on one of its sedans; even I, a college student, could afford a Jaguar for that (and since some of my peers drive Land Rovers and Mercedes-Benzes I'm assuming these have now become affordable to the middle-class as well). It's just odd to live in a town like Pittston where everyone whines "I'm poor" and then see a BMW or an Audi at every other red light in front of a billboard advertising a new McMansion community like Quail Hill, Stauffer Pointe, or Horizon Estates. It's an enigma to me, as you're obviously NOT "poor" if you can afford to drive one of these vehicles while living in these homes. The raddy Dodge Shadows, Dodge Dynasties, Geo Metros, Reliant K Cars, etc. that used to be easily-identifiable here have largely vanished---I think the Honda Accord, Ford Explorer, and Toyota Camry are probably the three most common vehicles in my neighborhood now with a Range Rover or two thrown in for good measure.

People usually benchmark themselves economically to others to predict their socioeconomic status. I suppose by that rule of thumb I'm poor myself because I drive a 10-year-old sedan with rust damage, wear the same clothes I've been wearing the past five years, drink tap water, and buy generic brands. It's odd though because I feel solidly "middle-class" and don't think any less of myself simply because all of my friends drive fancy cars and wear Armani Exchange. If I were to go by my parents' income I'd be "wealthy" for our area and middle-class by overall American standards (as local incomes lag so far behind the national averages).

It's an enigma to me as to how someone who is $20,000 in credit card debt so they could afford a down payment on a McMansion they couldn't afford and a down payment on a luxury SUV they couldn't afford could think they are "well off."

[Suzer]

Hello to all my friends on the NEPA city-data forum ...

Life in the NW has been wonderful so far. I've moved in to an HR position that draws on my years of experience, have made several new friends, and have my wonderful extended family here. There's an international airport 10 minutes away, and I've had great times recently trying out Ethiopian and French restaurants, noshing on beer and pizza while attending a movie, and enjoying a panoramic view of snow-capped mountains while relishing the 60 degree weather.

I can buy booze at Walmart, yet I don't HAVE to shop there because there are five other groceries in a one mile radius. Friday night I'm going to listen to Kenya Dawson live (several of her songs can be heard on the "Juno" soundtrack) at an independent music shop. I hope the weather stays dry so I can visit the International Rose Garden and Portland Zoo.

I hope my husband can find a great job too, and that our house sells in DF when we put it on the market. We're doing the two career, bi-coastal family thing, but this is something a little patience will see us through.

Take care everybody! Loving life in the Portland metro area!

[ScranBarre]

Originally Posted by Suzer

Hello to all my friends on the NEPA city-data forum ...

Life in the NW has been wonderful so far. I've moved in to an HR position that draws on my years of experience, have made several new friends, and have my wonderful extended family here. There's an international airport 10 minutes away, and I've had great times recently trying out Ethiopian and French restaurants, noshing on beer and pizza while attending a movie, and enjoying a panoramic view of snow-capped mountains while relishing the 60 degree weather.

I can buy booze at Walmart, yet I don't HAVE to shop there because there are five other groceries in a one mile radius. Friday night I'm going to listen to Kenya Dawson live (several of her songs can be heard on the "Juno" soundtrack) at an independent music shop. I hope the weather stays dry so I can visit the International Rose Garden and Portland Zoo.

I hope my husband can find a great job too, and that our house sells in DF when we put it on the market. We're doing the two career, bi-coastal family thing, but this is something a little patience will see us through.

Take care everybody! Loving life in the Portland metro area!

I'm glad Vancouver has been kind to you thus far, and I hope you'll continue to enjoy all the benefits that living in the Pacific Northwest affords to its residents! Portland (besides the rain) always ranks very highly in many quality-of-life surveys, and I hope you find Washington to be a vast improvement over Pike County. We're all wishing you the best of luck in your new endeavors!