Bus accident on I-380 (cars, best, dry)

[fisheye]

Originally Posted by mathjak107

the problem is front wheel drive cars are very different then rear wheel . if a rear wheel car skids , just ease up on the gas and steer in the direction of the skid ..if you have the room , easy peezy .....

front wheel drive cars have the wrong instructions in the manuals .. you need to manipulate the brake and gas together . it takes a lot of skill . once the car gets away in front wheel drive it is a mother to get back again .



FRONT WHEEL DRIVE CAN GET YOU KILLED

Any car can get you killed on ice and snow if you go too fast. Typically, the first snow of the season, I would see all the vehicles, that can go in snow, off the road and sitting waiting to get towed. Many times the two wheel drive vehicles are making it home safe (if they don't encounter any serious hills) because they know their vehicle is no good in snow and drive appropriately. Regardless of your drive system; it would not hurt to have some practice on ice and snow in a safe location.

As far as I-380 dangerous; have you taken a good, hard, look at the vehicles on the road in NYC? Many of your drivers drive by ear; they pull into a parking space and use the car in front of them as a brake! You have Kamikaze garbage haulers that would just as soon bury you at the landfill as give you the right of way. Then you have the cab drivers; I'll take I-380 any day!

[mathjak107]

the instruction books that come with front wheel drive cars are wrong too .. they should have been updated decades ago as they only apply to skidding with rear wheel drive

[fisheye]

Truck drivers are taught to always look ahead and keep our eyes moving; it takes us more distance to stop. Of course there are good and bad truck drivers. In general; most truck drivers have more experience and are therefore better drivers.

Anticipating problems before they become problems helps. When you have a cold rain and you see ice forming on your rearview mirrors, windshield or wipers; then it is time to start slowing down. When everything gets quiet and you no longer see road spray coming off of other vehicles; there is a chance you are on black ice. At that point good motorist slowly leave off the gas and slow down. But the odds are that somebody will still fly by you and you will eventually see them in a ditch.

Being observant really helps. You do not need a safety course to see potential problems; you can literally 'read' the road. As motorist come south on Route 611 (not too far from where I live) and they approach Woodland Road (where the Mt. Airy casino is located) they can see many skid marks on the asphalt. You are coming down a grade for that intersection and many, especially trucks, have a hard time stopping for that light. Just with that knowledge; motorist can help themselves and possibly prevent the next accident. You want distance between your car and the next vehicle so that you have room to move if you see somebody trying to stop. When motorist pull up to within feet of the next vehicle they leave themselves no room to maneuver.

As far as your front wheel vehicles; the old VWs had a similar problem. They were really great in the snow until the back end started to come around; then you could spin like a top. The motor and all the weight was in the back and it provided great traction in snow. But when you started to slide there was a point of no return because of that motor weight.

All of this said; nothing beats hands on experience with each individual vehicle. And that is the one thing we do not provide until it is too late.

[thecoalman]

Originally Posted by mathjak107

once the car gets away in front wheel drive it is a mother to get back again

But it's less likely to get away from you.... Pulling something is a lot easier to control than pushing something, plus you have much more weight on the wheels.

[thecoalman]

Originally Posted by mathjak107

the instruction books that come with front wheel drive cars are wrong too .. they should have been updated decades ago as they only apply to skidding with rear wheel drive

Most people do not have the skill to keep their wheels in the right position during skid let alone knowing when to punch the gas when their brain is screaming BRAKE!. Fisheye mentioned the donuts in parking lots which of course I had plenty of experience doing. I also spent a lot of time on quads. My buddy had a racing quad with slicks, that was an absolute blast going sideways around corners because you could probably get it at 45 degree angle to the direction you were going.



If you want to do that you have to experience it especially if you are making split second decisions, reading it is not enough and may even lead to accidents.

[fisheye]

Originally Posted by thecoalman

Most people do not have the skill to keep their wheels in the right position during skid let alone knowing when to punch the gas when their brain is screaming BRAKE!. Fisheye mentioned the donuts in parking lots which of course I had plenty of experience doing. I also spent a lot of time on quads. My buddy had a racing quad with slicks, that was an absolute blast going sideways around corners because you could probably get it at 45 degree angle to the direction you were going.



If you want to do that you have to experience it especially if you are making split second decisions, reading it is not enough and may even lead to accidents.

Every time my driveway is covered in ice I love to still charge in reverse and do a power brake! Some kids never grow up! That is on my level top section of driveway.

However my 18 degree driveway, down a 300' long, hill scares me! Sometimes I worry just trying to salt it. The only thing to stop me, if I start sliding, is a huge maple across the road from my driveway.

[thecoalman]

Originally Posted by fisheye

Every time my driveway is covered in ice I love to still charge in reverse and do a power brake! Some kids never grow up! That is on my level top section of driveway.

I've even messed around with the coal truck, plenty of room over at the breaker. Nothing crazy, just kick the back end out a little. Wasn't doing it for fun though, wanted to experience it and see what kind of control I had.

[mathjak107]

Originally Posted by thecoalman

Most people do not have the skill to keep their wheels in the right position during skid let alone knowing when to punch the gas when their brain is screaming BRAKE!. Fisheye mentioned the donuts in parking lots which of course I had plenty of experience doing. I also spent a lot of time on quads. My buddy had a racing quad with slicks, that was an absolute blast going sideways around corners because you could probably get it at 45 degree angle to the direction you were going.



If you want to do that you have to experience it especially if you are making split second decisions, reading it is not enough and may even lead to accidents.

exactly . most people have the skill to regain control again with front wheel drive .

[mathjak107]

Originally Posted by thecoalman

But it's less likely to get away from you.... Pulling something is a lot easier to control than pushing something, plus you have much more weight on the wheels.

no doubt , but front wheel drive is really only fine until it's not .. then there is almost no regaining control like you can with rear wheel drive without an awful of skill .

personally i only use cars with superb awd systems like my subaru and bmw's have or jeeps . been decades now and no issues .

my gripe is all the front wheel drive manuals tell you to apply the brake and steer in to the skid still .. that is quite wrong yet it gets parroted over and over

[fisheye]

Originally Posted by mathjak107

no doubt , but front wheel drive is really only fine until it's not .. then there is almost no regaining control like you can with rear wheel drive without an awful of skill .

personally i only use cars with superb awd systems like my subaru and bmw's have or jeeps . been decades now and no issues .

my gripe is all the front wheel drive manuals tell you to apply the brake and steer in to the skid still .. that is quite wrong yet it gets parroted over and over

Like I said before; the old VWs had the same problem with all the weight in the rear. I had a rear wheel drive Corona that got stuck on level wet grass; it positively would not go in snow. It's all about weight distribution and the only real way to know is to practice where it is safe. But, for insurance purposes, nobody wants you to practice on their property today.

With big trucks empty trailers are more unsafe than loaded trailers. Also the cab, bobtailing (without a trailer) has a hard time stopping. Our brakes are engineered to stop heavy loads and don't work great with light loads. With double trailers a heavy front trailer and an empty back trailer is a dangerous combination that requires only light braking - a heavy foot on the brake can jackknife the rear trailer.

Also, personally, I think I have seen more accidents on slush than I have on black ice. Not that black ice is not dangerous; it is just that so many drivers overlook the dangers of slush. Driver will attempt to pass where the passing lane is not plowed, catch a few inches of slush, and they loose control.