Scranton vs. Wilkes-Barre (Philadelphia, York, Back Mountain: environment, transplants, cul-de-sac)

[ScranBarre]

As of late I'm finding myself less and less enamored with Scranton's progress downtown and more and more intrigued by how rapidly Wilkes-Barre is starting to make a comeback. Around the dawn of the millenium it seemed as if Downtown Wilkes-Barre had hit rock bottom; even the streetlights were falling down onto vehicles. Meanwhile Downtown Scranton was being hyped up left and right with all sorts of promises about trendy lofts, galleries, studios, bistros, boutiques, etc.---in many people's eyes it would have been a mini-SoHo by 2010. As we near the end of the first decade of the new millenium it now appears that Downtown Wilkes-Barre is starting to push forward with a myriad of new projects while the ones that once held so much promise for Scranton are just idling. I've also noticed that residents of the Diamond City seem to have embraced both Mayor Leighton and his "I Believe" campaign while just 16 miles to the north, Electric City residents are very, very critical and skeptical about Mayor Doherty and his "Restoring the Pride" promise.

To me I just find this to be unusual. Five years ago people thought Wilkes-Barre was a cess pool and that Scranton was an up-and-comer. Now those roles seem to be reversing as progress can be seen on nearly every corner in Wilkes-Barre while Scranton can barely get any of its planned projects accomplished. Even I must admit that if the local employment outlook ever brightens I'd prefer to live in one of the upcoming riverfront Hotel Sterling lofts and walk to work on the square as opposed to trying to be an "urban pioneer" by rehabbing a small Victorian in Scranton's nefarious Lower Hill. While Wilkes-Barre (pop. 40,000) may still have a higher overall crime rate than Scranton (pop. 70,000), the Diamond City's downtown remains relatively safe and tranquil. The only downtown neighborhood I've ever felt threatened in---the one bounded by North Street, North Washington Street, Union Street, and North Main Street, or roughly the area just to the east of King's College, is in the first phase of a total rehabilitation that will make the northern gateway into Center City much more attractive. This neighborhood, where I once had to scurry away from a hostile homeless drunk who threatened me and ran after me because I said "good morning" to him, will soon be gentrified, pushing the rifraff out.

Here's a realistic snapshot of Wilkes-Barre in five years:

• Completion of Riverfront Commons Project, Complete With Concerts, Annual Festivals, Recreational Amenities, and Potentially Even Boating Opportunities
• Completion of Hotel Sterling Rehabilitation Into Dozens of High-End Condos Overlooking the River
• Transformation of Irem Temple into Artists' Colony
• Demolition of Blighted Former Rodano's and Mary Corcoran Printing Buildings to Make Way for New Mixed-Use Building Across From King's College Campus
• Restoration of Murray Complex into Massive Mixed-Use Complex Featuring Lofts, Restaurants, Office Space, and Retail Space
• Restoration of Market Street Square, Capped Off With Restoration of Old Train Station into Downtown Visitors' Center
• Completion of Downtown StreetScape System, Citywide WiFi Access, and Citywide Surveillance System
• Renovation of Historically Significant Yet Abandoned Bank Building on Public Square into Restaurant
• 100% Capacity For Commercial and Residential Space in the Northampton & Main Project
• Continued Expansion of Wilkes University to Include New Law School, and Continued Expansion of King's College to Accomodate Record Enrollments Annually
• New North Branch of the Osterhout Free Library Erected in Parsons
• Realignment and Widening of Coal Street to Offer Direct Downtown Access From I-81, and Restoration of Coal Street Park
• Continued Expansion of High-Tech Start-Ups Like Pepperjam, Solid Cactus, BabyAge, iGourmet, etc. Could Fuel a Downtown Office Space Crunch

With all of these projects, and potentially even more, combined, the city should be able to make a dramatic turnaround. In my humble opinion, Mayor Leighton has been very successful in his first several years in office, and it's nice to see that the majority of Wilkes-Barre residents are noting the improvements and are supporting his civic pride campaign. Scranton, on the other hand, also has many projects slated that "could" come to fruition over the next five years, and amongst them are:

• Establishment of Commonwealth Medical College
• Completion of the Rehabilitation of the 500-Block of Lackawanna Avenue to House Studios, Galleries, Restaurants, Boutiques, and Green Space
• Rehabilitation of the Connell Building Into Dozens of Condos With Ground-Level Retail
• Construction of Jefferson Pointe, a Four-Story Apartment Building Adjacent to the Downtown Hilton With Ground-Level Restaurants
• Completion of St. Peter's Square Project to Include a Mixed-Use Atmosphere
• Initiation of Sixth Avenue Redevelopment, Which, After the Replacement of the Lackawanna Avenue Bridge, Would Help to Finally "Link" Center City to West Side With Green Space, Two New Condo Towers, and the Renovation of an Old Freight Train Station into Restaurants
• "The Office" Convention Will Become an Annual Event That Will Continue to Draw National Attention to the City
• Restoration of the Nay Aug Park Zoo (That's a BIG "If")
• Lackawanna Riverfront Restoration
• Completion of Levee System to Protect Low-Lying Neighborhoods
• Continued Expansion of University of Scranton
• Completion of "The Colonnade"
• New StreetScape Project Aimed to Beautify Main Avenue in West Side
• New Intermodal Transportation Center to Include Commuter Rail Access to Hoboken, NJ
• 100% Occupancy of Southern Union Building

While almost everything on Wilkes-Barre's list seems to be coming to fruition, perhaps half of the Scranton list will be reality in five years. Could Wilkes-Barre actually overtake Scranton as a premier place to call home in the next decade? While Scrantonians used to poke fun at the Diamond City as being inferior, is it possible that Mayor Doherty has driven Scranton into such a financial mess that its development has now "plateaued," allowing Wilkes-Barre to quickly play catch-up?

What are your opinions about the present and future states of both hub cities of NEPA?

[FightinPhils]

While Wilkes-Barre may be making some improvements downtown, the fact remains that a sizeable big city criminal element has moved into W-B, and some new downtown businesses and a riverfront project will not all of a sudden make these people leave. They will still be here, meaning that the drugs and crime will also remain. Downtown may improve and become a destination again, but it will not necessarily make W-B's neighborhoods, especially South Wilkes-Barre, liveable again.

Although I have the same concerns for Scranton as well...there is more of an out of town criminal element than there used to be, hopefully this problem doesn't grow.

Scranton is still the more liveable city, and has better schools. I don't foresee Scranton ever being lower on the totem pole to Wilkes-Barre. Honestly, I hope we get to the point where both cities are great places to live.

[ScranBarre]

Since I'm the first to vote, I will clarify my position. As of 2008 I think Scranton is the premier city to call home. Its crime rate overall is lower than Wilkes-Barre's, even though it has 30,000 more residents. However, this can be somewhat excused in Wilkes-Barre because its immediate metro population in the Wyoming Valley/Back Mountain areas is higher than Scranton's immediate population in the Mid-Valley/Abington areas; a higher, denser population tends to breed more opportunity for crime. I've also noticed the trend that Wilkes-Barre attracts more transplants from Philadelphia whereas Scranton attracts more transplants from New York City---probably because each city is closer to the other by a short distance.

Through my photo tours I have fallen in love with Scranton, and I even shed some tears when I came to the realization that I very well may have to move away to further my professional ambitions. Scranton has a very "Mayberry" like feel in many of its neighborhoods. When a child is burned in a fire, when a mother develops breast cancer, or as we saw when a firefighter valiantly loses his life in the line of duty, the entire city pulls together to offer the clothing off their backs to help out. People in the city of Scranton seem to genuinely care about one another and look out for each other, whereas I don't get that same feeling here in the suburbs of the Pittston Area, where the environment is more transient and sterile. It was not uncommon on my photo tours in this city of 70,000 to see a grandmother pulling two tots in a little red wagon while the kids waved at me and the grandmother initiated a conversation with someone sitting on a front porch. It's THAT type of atmosphere that I want to raise my own family in, yet sadly since all our area can offer to professionals are positions at fast-food restaurants, big-box stores, and distribution centers, my dream will probably never happen. Whenever something goes awry in Scranton, especially in more close-knit neighborhoods like West Side, the community literally bands together and stands behind one another. You see that occasionally in some other communities in NEPA, but not quite as pronounced as in the Electric City.

Scranton also has the advantage of having more national recognition right now thanks to the popularity of "The Office," my ranting and raving on various national Internet forums, and successful tourism promotion campaigns. I know this because as recently as ten years ago I'd have to give a long-winded explanation of where exactly Scranton was while traveling and chatting with strangers whereas more recently people actually DO know where Scranton is. Scranton also has some sort of special event happening every other day, whether it be a marathon, charity run, parade, ethnic food festival, classic car show, art galas, etc., whereas Wilkes-Barre is VASTLY underutilized for special events. I can only think of the Cherry Blossom Festival, Fine Arts Fiesta, and Farmers' Market that are unique annual events in the city, along with annual parades for our veterans, St. Patrick's Day, and Christmas. That's six events throughout the year to look forward to while Scranton seems to have a few dozen. Scranton, in that regard, is just a more "fun" place to call home.

However, I've noticed not only on this forum but in general from people I meet in person that Scrantonians have less and less pride in their city as the years progress while Wilkes-Barreans have an infectious case of optimism and hope now like never before since just after the great 1972 flood. Mayor Doherty of Scranton seems to be as popular as explosive hippopotamus flatulence while Mayor Leighton garners very few attacks from residents. People like Karnak, W-B Proud, Chefkey, WasPA, etc. are INDEED the types of people I meet all over Wilkes-Barre. They know that their city has problems, but they also see a silver lining now emerging. People like weluvpa, NYRangers2008, Les Spindler, Fay Franus, Ozzie Quinn, etc. are indicative of most people I DO meet in Scranton---negative about its future and feeling "let down" by the ineptitude of local politicians. I can name numerous "boosters" of Wilkes-Barre while Scranton's are as scarce as hen's teeth. A city can't revitalize itself if seemingly nobody has faith in its revival, so in this sense I see the growing pessimism epidemic in Scranton as being a thorn in its side that will slow progress and permit Wilkes-Barre to quickly catch up and then possibly even overtake Scranton in terms of progress.

I was just out running yesterday along the Wyoming Valley Levee System and had such a good time that I plan to return today for an encore run. Joining me on my run were dozens of others---inline skaters, bicyclists, mothers with strollers, power-walking middle-aged women, dog walkers, etc. There has been TREMENDOUS curiosity amongst my peers about the new riverfront project in Downtown Wilkes-Barre, and I can easily see that generating hundreds of more people in daily foot traffic to the River Street corridor upon its successful completion next Spring. New restaurants and shops may be tempted to open up nearby to capitalize upon that foot traffic along Market Street, where office workers near the square may decide to take their lunches over to the riverfront to sit and chat at a picnic table overlooking the river during warm days. After all, 14,000+ people commute into Downtown Wilkes-Barre on a daily basis, and that is still a largely untapped market for prospective entrepreneurs.

In the short-term I'd recommend Scranton anyday over Wilkes-Barre. In the long-term, unless something drastic happens in the Electric City (like ousting your mayor and returning yourselves to fiscal solvancy), Wilkes-Barre has tremendous potential to put you to shame in terms of recovery.

[ScranBarre]

Originally Posted by MrKrabs

While Wilkes-Barre may be making some improvements downtown, the fact remains that a sizeable big city criminal element has moved into W-B, and some new downtown businesses and a riverfront project will not all of a sudden make these people leave. They will still be here, meaning that the drugs and crime will also remain. Downtown may improve and become a destination again, but it will not necessarily make W-B's neighborhoods, especially South Wilkes-Barre, liveable again.

Although I have the same concerns for Scranton as well...there is more of an out of town criminal element than there used to be, hopefully this problem doesn't grow.

Scranton is still the more liveable city, and has better schools. I don't foresee Scranton ever being lower on the totem pole to Wilkes-Barre. Honestly, I hope we get to the point where both cities are great places to live.

Your concerns are very valid, and your points are well taken. You're unique in that you live in Scranton and work in Wilkes-Barre. I'm unique in that I live nearly exactly the same distance from both cities and likewise spend nearly equal amounts of time in each. In this sense we both get a good grasp of projects going on in each city moreso than someone who lives in one of the cities and rarely visits the other.

I'll agree that while I hope the influx of big city residents into Scranton/Wilkes-Barre continues---enough so that our population begins to increase again---I also hope that what we've been seeing with the rise of gangs, drug dealers, etc. isn't a long-term trend. I'm hoping that more people like Chefkey, coartist88, memoriesbre, Karnak, and other upstanding big city transplants can help to eventually "drown out" the bad apples.

In terms of neighborhood quality I can agree that there are parts of South Wilkes-Barre that are downright scary. I've driven through there at night, and it is not uncommon to see groups of "hoodies" idling on street corners, smoking, pointing at passing cars, etc. They're certainly up to no good, and all they do is make long-term residents feel "trapped" in a city in the midst of decline. On the other hand, once you head north of the Cross-Valley Expressway into Parsons and Miners Mills, you feel more like you're in separate small towns, much as how Hyde Park and Green Ridge feel separated from the core of Scranton. While North Wilkes-Barre could certainly use some "prettiness" with some shade trees, homes painted in a color OTHER than exclusively white, underground utilities, etc., I wouldn't hesitate to call either Parsons or Miners Mills home. Ditto for parts of The Heights, Barney Farms, Riverside Park, and the Historic District. Downtown Wilkes-Barre has an advantage in that Kingston, a very desirable, leafy, walkable community, sits within walking distance whereas Dunmore, which is Scranton's closest version of Kingston, isn't really easily-accessible from Downtown Scranton. Many of my professors at King's live in Kingston and walk to work into Downtown Wilkes-Barre on nice days. You don't hear about people from Dunmore walking to work to Downtown Scranton.

I'm inclined to disagree with you though on one key issue. I feel as if a city with a nearly 100% revitalized downtown will start to radiate its positive effects to adjacent neighborhoods, revitalizing them as well. If a city has a "hip" downtown, then people will want to trade in their cul-de-sacs to live near to the action, and since there are very few options to reside in either city's downtown (so far), this means adjacent neighborhoods like The Heights and the Historic District in Wilkes-Barre and the Lower Hill, Hyde Park, Pinebrook, and even Upper South Side in Scranton could all see reinvestment from people who will want to usurp having to pay $4/gallon for gasoline and live within walking distance of a revitalized downtown area. I know I personally feel this way---in my search for a new city a healthy downtown is ESSENTIAL---and I'm sure many others feel the same way. Leighton and Doherty both recognize this, but Doherty has bumbled it while Leighton is catching onto it the right way.

[W-B proud]

I live in Wilkes-Barre so I'm obviously biased, and want to see W-B be the premiere city in the region, but at the same time I also want Scranton and Hazleton to be successful. Even though the locals see our cities trying to "one up" each other, and the talk about the great wall between W-B and Scranton. Outsiders view us as one. So the success of one city, like Scranton for example shines a positive light on the entire region, likewise the failure of one of our cites shines a negative light on the entire region. For example, say you were a buisness traveler from Cleveland, and have never been to this region, but you'll only be in town for 2 days, and the only area you'll get to see is, lets say, a rundown section of south Wilkes-Barre (drug dealers, shady people all over, run down abandoned buildings)ect. Well guess what, that buisness traveler is going to leave Wilkes-Barre with a negative view of the entire region, because we are all tied together as NEPA. Whether it's fair or not. So, the success of one city directly affects the reputation of the other. And while I hope both cities thrive into the future. A little competion between Wilkes-Barre and Scranton is a good thing (in my opinion). As our respective cities compete for dominance, I believe, more and more good things will continue to happen. Where as, if there was only one main city in the region, they wouldn't even try half as hard to land jobs or new development. I think with good, healthy competion between Wilkes-Barre and Scranton, everybody wins!

[FightinPhils]

Originally Posted by W-B proud

I live in Wilkes-Barre so I'm obviously biased, and want to see W-B be the premiere city in the region, but at the same time I also want Scranton and Hazleton to be successful. Even though the locals see our cities trying to "one up" each other, and the talk about the great wall between W-B and Scranton. Outsiders view us as one. So the success of one city, like Scranton for example shines a positive light on the entire region, likewise the failure of one of our cites shines a negative light on the entire region. For example, say you were a buisness traveler from Cleveland, and have never been to this region, but you'll only be in town for 2 days, and the only area you'll get to see is, lets say, a rundown section of south Wilkes-Barre (drug dealers, shady people all over, run down abandoned buildings)ect. Well guess what, that buisness traveler is going to leave Wilkes-Barre with a negative view of the entire region, because we are all tied together as NEPA. Whether it's fair or not. So, the success of one city directly affects the reputation of the other. And while I hope both cities thrive into the future. A little competion between Wilkes-Barre and Scranton is a good thing (in my opinion). As our respective cities compete for dominance, I believe, more and more good things will continue to happen. Where as, if there was only one main city in the region, they wouldn't even try half as hard to land jobs or new development. I think with good, healthy competion between Wilkes-Barre and Scranton, everybody wins!

I agree. People around here need to start viewing this as one region, rather than a Scranton vs Wilkes-Barre or Lackawanna County vs. Luzerne County issue. The infighting between the two cities and rivalry does no good for anyone. Although, as far as the "premier city" issue, it would have to be Scranton, just based on population....its the largest city. You won't ever see Jersey City or Newark considered the "premier city" of the New York metropolitan area, or Anaheim for the LA area, Camden for the the Philadelphia area, etc etc. That's not a shot at W-B, but an area is always identified by its largest city.

[The Commish]

Originally Posted by ScranBarre

a higher, denser population tends to breed more opportunity for crime.

I wonder if that's necessarily true.

In my understanding, a densely populated, mixed use area with lots of foot traffic discourages crime. It would be interesting to see the statistics on this one. Crime seems to have a lot of factors. Not sure if we can definitively say that higher, denser populations show any correlation to crime rates.

[ScranBarre]

Originally Posted by MrKrabs

I agree. People around here need to start viewing this as one region, rather than a Scranton vs Wilkes-Barre or Lackawanna County vs. Luzerne County issue. The infighting between the two cities and rivalry does no good for anyone. Although, as far as the "premier city" issue, it would have to be Scranton, just based on population....its the largest city. You won't ever see Jersey City or Newark considered the "premier city" of the New York metropolitan area, or Anaheim for the LA area, Camden for the the Philadelphia area, etc etc. That's not a shot at W-B, but an area is always identified by its largest city.

I agree that in order for this area to thrive the provincialism needs to end. Raleigh/Durham complement each other, as do Dallas/Forth Worth, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Miami/Ft. Lauderdale, etc. All of these areas are doing fine economically, and residents of the "second" cities (after the backslash) are quite content in their positions. This should be the same case with Scranton/Wilkes-Barre. However, this area DOES have an identity crisis. While everything SHOULD be stated as such in this region, just look at the Wilkes-Barre/Scranton International Airport, Wilkes-Barre/Scranton Penguins, Wilkes-Barre/Scranton Pioneers, etc. as fine examples of how Wilkes-Barre is trying to assert its dominance over its larger sister city to the north. You don't hear people calling places "Forth Worth/Dallas", "St. Paul/Minneapolis", or even "Tacoma/Seattle" for that matter, so why "Wilkes-Barre/Scranton?" Are people here just content with sounding "backwards?"

I think our local counties are way too municipally fragmented. Luzerne County has 76 municipalities, most of which have 5,000 or less residents. This creates a lot of waste---paying for separate mayors, councils, police departments, fire departments, DPWs, etc. Just look at Jeddo Borough, with a population of around 140, as a prime example of local resistance to change. Surrounding Hazle Township wants to annex Jeddo to boost its tax base, but residents there want to "retain their independence." How stupid are those people in Jeddo? If they permit themselves to be annexed, then instead of having to wait for state police response, they can have the paid Hazle Township police respond in mere minutes. They can have all sorts of municipal services. Why won't they annex themselves into Hazle Township? The same could be said for Sugar Notch and Warrior Run with Hanover Township or even Pringle and Courtdale with Luzerne Borough. The "fiefdom" mentality here is strangling our economic vitality.

[WasPA]

Originally Posted by The Commish

I wonder if that's necessarily true.

In my understanding, a densely populated, mixed use area with lots of foot traffic discourages crime. It would be interesting to see the statistics on this one. Crime seems to have a lot of factors. Not sure if we can definitively say that higher, denser populations show any correlation to crime rates.

Were it the case that higher pop. & greater density fostered higher crime, Wilkes-Barre would have been very high crime in the mid 20th Century when twice today's population occcupied the same city boundaries as exists today......in fact, W-B of that era was the opposite of crime infested......

[ScranBarre]

Originally Posted by The Commish

I wonder if that's necessarily true.

In my understanding, a densely populated, mixed use area with lots of foot traffic discourages crime. It would be interesting to see the statistics on this one. Crime seems to have a lot of factors. Not sure if we can definitively say that higher, denser populations show any correlation to crime rates.

Originally Posted by WasPA

Were it the case that higher pop. & greater density fostered higher crime, Wilkes-Barre would have been very high crime in the mid 20th Century when twice today's population occcupied the same city boundaries as exists today......in fact, W-B of that era was the opposite of crime infested......

You both make some very valid points. A higher population density normally does correspond to a higher concentration of foot traffic, which is a great deterrent for would-be criminals. There's a reason, after all, why Manhattan's crime rate is nearly non-existent. Why would someone try to mug you if they have dozens of witnesses at every turn when they could instead lurk in some dank alleyway in the South Bronx and jump you without any witnesses? I was out and about enjoying the sights in Downtown Wilkes-Barre today, and the amount of foot traffic was just incredible.

I think Wilkes-Barre feels more like a "city" than Scranton does, even though Scranton is so much larger. Wilkes-Barre's core is compact and easily-defined by North Street and the King's College campus on the north, South Street and the Wilkes University campus on the south, the Susquehanna River on the west, and the wide Wilkes-Barre Boulevard on the east. Meanwhile, Scranton's downtown is very, very decentralized, sprawls out for many blocks and has many many "gaps" in its small yet visible skyline. Both downtowns have a lot of historic appeal, but I think overall Wilkes-Barre has done a better job of preserving it. For example, the Hotel Casey was torn down in Scranton to make way for the Scranton Hilton whereas the Hotel Sterling in Wilkes-Barre is being refurbished and restored into condos. From what my father tells me it looks as if the historic 500-block of Lackawanna Avenue in Downtown Scranton is being decimated instead of preserved while plans are in place to renovate the old Murray Complex in Wilkes-Barre into trendy lofts, restaurants, and shops. If you're looking for a city with a more "urban" flair to it, then Wilkes-Barre definitely seems to take the cake.