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Old 06-24-2008, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael J. McFadden View Post


And... "I guess you don't get the fact that breathing is a necessity....smoking is a choice (a stupid choice at that)."

And people were doing both, quite nicely and all together, for many, many years before smoking bans disrupted things.
Tell that to my dead mother in law, and countless millions of others who died from smoking.
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Old 06-24-2008, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael J. McFadden View Post
What! wrote, "Are you actually gonna open a bar just to fight this law? It is not that serious, guy."

Tell that to some of the folks quoted in the economics section of the Stiletto referenced earlier.
So should we legalize cocaine as well, since laws against cocaine have put a lot of coke dealers out of business?

And anyways, PA's smoking ban is watered-down compared to other states....bars whose business is not primarily food will still be able to allow smoking...so basically the bars that are havens for smokers will be able to continue to allow smoking, so everyone wins, families with kids will be able to go out and not have to be exposed to smoke, and smokers will still be able to go out to bars and have some smokes and beer. I think its more than a fair compromise.


And if a few go out of business, it won't hurt the economy, the people who would have spent their money at those closed businesses will spend their money elsewhere, and will still be putting their money into the economy.

Last edited by FightinPhils; 06-24-2008 at 07:28 AM..
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Old 06-24-2008, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScranBarre View Post
I made that mistake in 2007 and paid for it dearly when a relative of mine was harassed for some politically unpopular comments that I had made (apparently it's a crime to be a Democrat in the Northeast).
What? The democrats have a 2-to-1 edge in voter registration in Lackawanna County, and the demographics of Luzerne County are similar I'm sure. Growing up in the Mid-Valley, it was almost a crime to be a republican!
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Old 06-24-2008, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by FightinPhils View Post
...since laws against cocaine have put a lot of coke dealers out of business?
Laws don't put cocaine dealers out of business, it creates them.

Quote:
And if a few go out of business, it won't hurt the economy,
If you ever invested years of your life and a substantial amount of money in a business you'd understand why a statement like that infuriates people like me. It's pretty easy to nonchalantly say "Oh well, so what its just a couple of bars" unless you have actually ran your own business. A small business, especially those in the food and bar industry are 7 day a week jobs usually upwards of 12 hours a day if you wish to succeed. Overnight successes are rare and it takes a lot of sacrifice and funds to become successful.
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Old 06-24-2008, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
You first make a comment about smokers being selfish then come off with comment like that? Have you considered the substantial investment of time and funds a proprietor of such a business has invested to make it successful?
I have to quote this post once again. Like I said before, all my favorite bars are still running fine. William's Peanut Bar and Cafe and China Latino's, both on Hennepin Avenue and a block apart from each other, are doing well when it comes to business. Just last Saturday I was in William's and it was so packed an anorexic lady would have trouble squeezing through there. There were people standing outside Chino Latino's and William's. Do you know what they were doing? Smoking. They would smoke outside for a quick puff and then go back into William's like it was no big deal. This is something they could have been doing a long time ago. Once again, my favorite restaurants are still going strong.

Also, call me selfish for not feeling sorry for these business owners here's something you need to know *ahem*: I DON'T GIVE A FLAMING CRAP IS THESE BUSINESSES GO OUT OF BUSINESS! REPEAT: I DON'T GIVE A CRAP IF THESE BUSINESSES GO OUT OF BUSINESS AND THESE BUSINESS OWNERS GO BANKRUPT. Like I said before, many of those guys are jerkoffs. Two years ago, I remember it like it was yesterday, me and six others went into Renegade's in Savage, just off County Road 42. We were looking for a good bar to hang out and frequent. We went inside Renegade's and this bar had smoke packed into every crevice of the place. I don't know if there was a non-smoking sign or not, but it wouldn't matter. Cigarette smoke was as prevalent to that bar as dust was to PigPen from the Peanuts gang. We were in there for less than an hour and the smoke was already getting to us. We asked a female worker about it and she said she'd get the boss. He came over and we said, "The smoke is really prevalent in this bar. Is it always like this? Isn't there a place in this bar w/o so much cigarette smoke?" He didn't really answer our questions, here is what he said, "I get this complaint all the time. Some customers like the smoke, other customers don't. I allow smoking in here. If smoking offends you then I am sorry. But you have the option to leave." We didn't entirely fault him because he was polite. But the fact remains that he was choosing to overlook our business for the business of others is the reason why we left, and the reason why he lost seven potential new customers that day. The fact that he gets that complaint all the time means he's lost many more. There are many people in city data who have posted stories about going to a bar and not enjoying their experience because of smoking bars. These bar owners lose customers because they give preference to the smokers over the non-smokers. If the pro-smoking bar owners were like William's Peanut Bar, a bar that focuses on the social comfort of all their patrons, they wouldn't have that problem. William's is known for trying to treat every customer equally. Renegade's and other non-smoking bars have obvious preferences for certain customers.

Another thing, I've had to deal with shiesty business owners many time in my life. Both large and many times small business owners. Just last week I was at the Soho Cafe in Minneapolis. I was a little tipsy and I ordered something. The business owner gave me this sly look and tried to spend almost three minutes trying to upsell me. After he found out it wasn't happening he looked away from me and made a disgusted look as he rang up my order. After I sat down I heard him talking to his one of his workers in Greek. He sounded agitated so I looked over and I saw him gesturing toward me as he spoke. When he saw me looking he turned away. I looked away and heard him again. I turned and saw him gesturing again, like he was mad at me about something. He stopped when he noticed me. A minute later he had my order. He rang it up and when I opened my wallet he was looking inside. If I wasn't as tipsy as I was I might have swung at him. THAT WAS NOT COOL! I didn't like the way he practically had his nose in my wallet. He was leaning over the counter and over the register and peering into my wallet. When I tried to give him a ten he said, "Why don't you use a ten? You've got a lot of ones in there." I was cool about it because I was drunk. But I was pissed when I sobered up later. Nobody should be that shiesty. And many small business owners are as shiesty as large business owners. Yeah, I am selfish, I drive by there occasionally and see few customers and smile to myself. I will never go to his store again.

Seriously, I will dance when these businesses go out of business. Many of the business owners are jerks who are trying to line their pockets, and they wouldn't mind putting me into debt to do so. Are you freakin serious when you try to make me feel bad or look bad when you call me selfish when I think of myself over these business owners. Get outta town. I hardly have enough time and funds to run a lemonade stand on the street, and these guys have enough money to make an entire business. Answer me this: Why should I, a guy who is trying to pay off his debts, feel sorry for a guy whose job it is to make money off me? Why should a poorer man feel sorry for a richer man? It is preposterous. Boo-hoo. Where is my violin? Where is my Stradivarius? Oh, there it is. *plays the violin* Oh God, those scheming business owners are going bankrupt. Look at me, I am crying all over my keyboard. My tears for those business owners are making it hard to type.

Yeah right! I will show record a video of me dancing in front of those businesses when they go closed and post it on youtube for everyone to see. I couldn't care less about those jerks. In fact, the coalman, you have made me feel ten times----no!-----one hundred times happier that these jerks are going outta business. You have made me so happy that I am going to rep you. the coalman, you will definitely get a rep from me for making me feel happier that these bums are going outta business. I could care less. My favorite restaurants are still open!
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Old 06-24-2008, 08:09 AM
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I never thought being so selfish could be so good. Now I know how these selfish business owners feel when they try to sell me something I don't need just to line their pockets. Thanks coalman, if I get a chance then I won't hesitate to rep you again.
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Old 06-24-2008, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
If the pro-smoking bar owners were like William's Peanut Bar, a bar that focuses on the social comfort of all their patrons, they wouldn't have that problem.
Visit that bar and your problem is solved, is it that hard to figure out?

Hearing how happy you'll be because of the misfortunes of others and your own inadequacies is really sad. I said inadequacies because though you may not have enough money to run a lemonade stand that's not an excuse. Many of the most successful businessmen I know started very small. One guy I know started with a lawnmower and weed whacker out of high school, he made a million or two over ten years and sold the business for a very large sum.

It can be done but you need determination, some intelligence, and be willing to sacrifice a lot. The sacrifice is the most important thing. Unfortunately most people like yourself rather ***** about how much someone else is making instead of going out and doing it themselves.
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Old 06-24-2008, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael J. McFadden View Post
ScranBarre, thanks for the concern. I'm quite aware of the problem, having experienced it both online and off.

Commish, you wrote, "As far as why a smoking ban is justified on public health policy grounds, it's simple. Every major health organization says that second hand smoke is harmful in one way or another."

But that does not explain why I, as a smoker, should be forbidden to open up a smoking establishment that hires only smokers and caters to only smokers. Nonsmokers have that right from the "other side" of the aisle, so why shouldn't smokers?

As for "every" major health organization agreeing that ETS is harmful, they also all agreed that trans-fats were healthier than butter a few years ago. And given the utility of promoting the fear of ETS in terms of its expected effect on reducing smoking, what health organization in its right mind would choose to stick its neck out and question the belief? (Although actually I believe a few have done so to various degrees. Ever notice that the source usually cited for the 50,000 deaths from ETS via heart disease is the American CANCER Society rather than the American Heart Association?)
Let me just start by saying that it's a relief to discuss this with you, as someone who seems to have a level-head, even if we ultimately disagree about the merits of a smoking ban.

As far as your example goes, I can agree with that as long as the establishment is a private club or otherwise not open to the public. Otherwise all restaurants would purport to "cater to smokers" and the ban would be meaningless. A ban can't have much wiggle room to work. While I don't like the glaring exception for establishments that get less than 20% of revenues from food, it still doesn't give owners much wiggle room.

And about the health consequeneces of second-hand smoke, there was no scientific consensus on trans-fats like there is for second-hand smoke. Regardless, I'm putting my lot with the overwhelming scientific consensus of experts in the field. Which health organization would challenge the consensus? The one with evidence. If such a result were ever found, it would be a *huge* coup for the authors of the published scientific article and for the organization.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
Here's a dirty little secret most would not be aware of, the rural interstates when designed are made for safe travel in excess of 90mph.
Actually, that's wrong.

We know with certainty that with each increase in the speed limit, more people die. But we allow that for business reasons (efficiency) and the fact that people just like to drive fast. I personally enjoy setting the cruise on 70 mph, so I wouldn't want a speed limit decrease. But I'm mindful of the fact that the roads are less safe at those speeds.
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Old 06-24-2008, 10:02 AM
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Scientific Evidence Shows Secondhand Smoke Is No Danger
Written By: Jerome Arnett, Jr., M.D.
Published In: Environment & Climate News
Publication Date: July 1, 2008
Publisher: The Heartland Institute
Scientific Evidence Shows Secondhand Smoke Is No Danger - by Jerome Arnett, Jr., M.D. - The Heartland Institute
Exposure to secondhand smoke (SHS) is an unpleasant experience for many nonsmokers, and for decades was considered a nuisance. But the idea that it might actually cause disease in nonsmokers has been around only since the 1970s.
Recent surveys show more than 80 percent of Americans now believe secondhand smoke is harmful to nonsmokers.
Federal Government Reports
A 1972 U.S. surgeon general's report first addressed passive smoking as a possible threat to nonsmokers and called for an anti-smoking movement. The issue was addressed again in surgeon generals' reports in 1979, 1982, and 1984.
A 1986 surgeon general's report concluded involuntary smoking caused lung cancer, but it offered only weak epidemiological evidence to support the claim. In 1989 the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) was charged with further evaluating the evidence for health effects of SHS.
In 1992 EPA published its report, "Respiratory Health Effects of Passive Smoking," claiming SHS is a serious public health problem, that it kills approximately 3,000 nonsmoking Americans each year from lung cancer, and that it is a Group A carcinogen (like benzene, asbestos, and radon).
The report has been used by the tobacco-control movement and government agencies, including public health departments, to justify the imposition of thousands of indoor smoking bans in public places.
Flawed Assumptions
EPA's 1992 conclusions are not supported by reliable scientific evidence. The report has been largely discredited and, in 1998, was legally vacated by a federal judge.
Even so, the EPA report was cited in the surgeon general's 2006 report on SHS, where then-Surgeon General Richard Carmona made the absurd claim that there is no risk-free level of exposure to SHS.
For its 1992 report, EPA arbitrarily chose to equate SHS with mainstream (or firsthand) smoke. One of the agency's stated assumptions was that because there is an association between active smoking and lung cancer, there also must be a similar association between SHS and lung cancer.
But the problem posed by SHS is entirely different from that found with mainstream smoke. A well-recognized toxicological principle states, "The dose makes the poison."
Accordingly, we physicians record direct exposure to cigarette smoke by smokers in the medical record as "pack-years smoked" (packs smoked per day times the number of years smoked). A smoking history of around 10 pack-years alerts the physician to search for cigarette-caused illness. But even those nonsmokers with the greatest exposure to SHS probably inhale the equivalent of only a small fraction (around 0.03) of one cigarette per day, which is equivalent to smoking around 10 cigarettes per year.
Low Statistical Association
Another major problem is that the epidemiological studies on which the EPA report is based are statistical studies that can show only correlation and cannot prove causation.
One statistical method used to compare the rates of a disease in two populations is relative risk (RR). It is the rate of disease found in the exposed population divided by the rate found in the unexposed population. An RR of 1.0 represents zero increased risk. Because confounding and other factors can obscure a weak association, in order even to suggest causation a very strong association must be found, on the order of at least 300 percent to 400 percent, which is an RR of 3.0 to 4.0.
For example, the studies linking direct cigarette smoking with lung cancer found an incidence in smokers of 20 to around 40 times that in nonsmokers, an association of 2000 percent to 4000 percent, or an RR of 20.0 to 40.0.
Scientific Principles Ignored
An even greater problem is the agency's lowering of the confidence interval (CI) used in its report. Epidemiologists calculate confidence intervals to express the likelihood a result could happen just by chance. A CI of 95 percent allows a 5 percent possibility that the results occurred only by chance.
Before its 1992 report, EPA had always used epidemiology's gold standard CI of 95 percent to measure statistical significance. But because the U.S. studies chosen for the report were not statistically significant within a 95 percent CI, for the first time in its history EPA changed the rules and used a 90 percent CI, which doubled the chance of being wrong.
This allowed it to report a statistically significant 19 percent increase of lung cancer cases in the nonsmoking spouses of smokers over those cases found in nonsmoking spouses of nonsmokers. Even though the RR was only 1.19--an amount far short of what is normally required to demonstrate correlation or causality--the agency concluded this was proof SHS increased the risk of U.S. nonsmokers developing lung cancer by 19 percent.
EPA Study Soundly Rejected
In November 1995 after a 20-month study, the Congressional Research Service released a detailed analysis of the EPA report that was highly critical of EPA's methods and conclusions. In 1998, in a devastating 92-page opinion, Federal Judge William Osteen vacated the EPA study, declaring it null and void. He found a culture of arrogance, deception, and cover-up at the agency.
Osteen noted, "First, there is evidence in the record supporting the accusation that EPA 'cherry picked' its data.... In order to confirm its hypothesis, EPA maintained its standard significance level but lowered the confidence interval to 90 percent. This allowed EPA to confirm its hypothesis by finding a relative risk of 1.19, albeit a very weak association.... EPA cannot show a statistically significant association between [SHS] and lung cancer."
The judge added, "EPA publicly committed to a conclusion before the research had begun; adjusted established procedure and scientific norms to validate its conclusion; and aggressively utilized its authority to disseminate findings to establish a de facto regulatory scheme to influence public opinion."
In 2003 a definitive paper on SHS and lung cancer mortality was published in the British Medical Journal. It is the largest and most detailed study ever reported. The authors studied more than 35,000 California never-smokers over a 39-year period and found no statistically significant association between exposure to SHS and lung cancer mortality.
Propaganda Trumps Science
The 1992 EPA report is an example of the use of epidemiology to promote belief in an epidemic instead of to investigate one. It has damaged the credibility of EPA and has tainted the fields of epidemiology and public health.
In addition, influential anti-tobacco activists, including prominent academics, have unethically attacked the research of eminent scientists in order to further their ideological and political agendas.
The abuse of scientific integrity and the generation of faulty "scientific" outcomes (through the use of pseudoscience) have led to the deception of the American public on a grand scale and to draconian government overregulation and the squandering of public money.
Millions of dollars have been spent promoting belief in SHS as a killer, and more millions of dollars have been spent by businesses in order to comply with thousands of highly restrictive bans, while personal choice and freedom have been denied to millions of smokers. Finally, and perhaps most tragically, all this has diverted resources away from discovering the true cause(s) of lung cancer in nonsmokers.
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Old 06-24-2008, 10:20 AM
Scranton is Dead.
 
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The Heartland Institute is *not* an independent source.

Try citing an independent medical or science association *not* funded by tobacco companies to reach a particular result.
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