This is what the Steamtown Mall replaced (Scranton, King of Prussia: amusement park, transfer)

[weluvpa]

Originally Posted by ScranBarre

Supporting more niche boutique/bistro/espresso bar/gallery-oriented development in downtown is useless unless it is COMPLEMENTED by loft housing catering to young urban professionals who will PATRONIZE those aforementioned establishments. Do you think the typical Pinebrook resident is going to be sipping a latte while window-shopping for Vera Bradley handbags after critiquing some art at "Fancy Fartsy Pants Gallery?" People from Waverly will. People from Glenmaura will. Some people from Green Ridge will. That's about it.

Paul those are great little shops to have but by no means are they reason enough for someone to drive down from Dalton or Waverly and MOST people work during the day........

Downtown is a ghost town on Saturday, when it should be busy with shoppers, and its dead after 5pm Mon.thru Fri.!

I don't understand, well thats not true...Luna is a sheep and is blinded by the fleece, but why can't you see that what you want Scranton to be is not what Scranton is....

You cannot change the demographic of our region....The downtown has been dead for over 50 years its time to stop the gov't welfare, I mean CPR and call it, its dead....Put a stic in it its done...

The municipal debt that is being created by this over spending is going to drag this city back 30 years and continue to force people to leave..

If people don't want to live here now what makes you think that after the long term debt hits $1,000,000,000 that they are going to want to stay....

There are no business's for these young hip people to work at so that they can live the URBAN lifestyle.....They will have to drive to work so whats the point of living in the downtown...

Just because you build it does not mean that they are going to come....We took a shalacking on the Southern Union building and if the mayors buddy didn't come in and buy it for a song and dance during the election year it would still be empty.....

[scrantonluna]

Mayor bashing and political conspiracy belong in the POLITICAL STICKY THREAD.

[to570717]

Please answer this without either calling me a cronie or sheep or anything else. I know what long term debt is. Where can i find facts about Scranton's actual deficit? I do not dispute you assertion that Scranton is in 700,000.00k + long term debt but i have never seen it or heard it anywhere other than by you. Can you show me or help me understand where that particular number came from?

[NYRangers 2008]

Originally Posted by scrantonluna

Mayor bashing and political conspiracy belong in the POLITICAL STICKY THREAD.

We should have our own sticky thread and name that thread "Scranton, the demise of a city" brought to you by Chris Doherty.

[weluvpa]

Originally Posted by to570717

Please answer this without either calling me a cronie or sheep or anything else. I know what long term debt is. Where can i find facts about Scranton's actual deficit? I do not dispute you assertion that Scranton is in 700,000.00k + long term debt but i have never seen it or heard it anywhere other than by you. Can you show me or help me understand where that particular number came from?

Its closer to $650,000,000 in long term.

That number includes the all municipal debt that the taxpayers are responsible for....

City:

200,000,000 bond debt
72,000,000 loan
6,000,000 loan
10,000,000 loan
6,000,000 loan
6,000,000 American water judgement
3,000,000 debt service from Hilton
1,000,000 dep fine
____________________

$298,000,000

This does not include any interest on the loans or bonds, it also does not include several million in lost arbitration awards for the unions.


Sewer:

5,300,000 loan
5,000,000 loan
2,874,649 loan
4,000,000 loan
8,000,000 loan
___________________

$25,174, 649


Again this is brief just loans...No interest

Parking:

35,000,000 bond issue that will be 95,000,000 in 25 years
16,100,000 bond issue


Already we are at $434,274,649 and that does not include interest or the School District debt..

If you add the SSD and then interest on the larger loans/bond issues we are easily close to the $650,000,000 mark. Not to mention that I have not listed the full parking authroity debt(can't find my notes) and the full sewer authority debt either..

Brief and quick got me to the $434,274,649 number minus the SSD and interest.

[weluvpa]

Originally Posted by weluvpa

Paul those are great little shops to have but by no means are they reason enough for someone to drive down from Dalton or Waverly and MOST people work during the day........

Downtown is a ghost town on Saturday, when it should be busy with shoppers, and its dead after 5pm Mon.thru Fri.!

I don't understand, well thats not true...Luna is a sheep and is blinded by the fleece, but why can't you see that what you want Scranton to be is not what Scranton is....

You cannot change the demographic of our region....The downtown has been dead for over 50 years its time to stop the gov't welfare, I mean CPR and call it, its dead....Put a stic in it its done...

The municipal debt that is being created by this over spending is going to drag this city back 30 years and continue to force people to leave..

If people don't want to live here now what makes you think that after the long term debt hits $1,000,000,000 that they are going to want to stay....

There are no business's for these young hip people to work at so that they can live the URBAN lifestyle.....They will have to drive to work so whats the point of living in the downtown...

Just because you build it does not mean that they are going to come....We took a shalacking on the Southern Union building and if the mayors buddy didn't come in and buy it for a song and dance during the election year it would still be empty.....

Please explain to me Luna where there is any mayor bashing or political conspiracy in this post?

Your just a sheep and that sucks for you but hey there is always Nay Aug...Hows that GWC campaign working for ya?

[VinceWhirlwind]

Originally Posted by weluvpa

Its closer to $650,000,000 in long term.

That number includes the all municipal debt that the taxpayers are responsible for....

City:

200,000,000 bond debt
72,000,000 loan
6,000,000 loan
10,000,000 loan
6,000,000 loan
6,000,000 American water judgement
3,000,000 debt service from Hilton
1,000,000 dep fine
____________________

$298,000,000

This does not include any interest on the loans or bonds, it also does not include several million in lost arbitration awards for the unions.


Sewer:

5,300,000 loan
5,000,000 loan
2,874,649 loan
4,000,000 loan
8,000,000 loan
___________________

$25,174, 649


Again this is brief just loans...No interest

Parking:

35,000,000 bond issue that will be 95,000,000 in 25 years
16,100,000 bond issue


Already we are at $434,274,649 and that does not include interest or the School District debt..

If you add the SSD and then interest on the larger loans/bond issues we are easily close to the $650,000,000 mark. Not to mention that I have not listed the full parking authroity debt(can't find my notes) and the full sewer authority debt either..

Brief and quick got me to the $434,274,649 number minus the SSD and interest.

i was reading your figures and i wanted to ask a question (also without being called anything.) aren't you including amounts on this list that aren't actually city bonds? that weren't drawn by the city, but by the authority or governing body of the organization? in looking at your list, it seems that some of these amounts are not included in city debt because they were not issues done by the city itself, however, the city must pass the amounts of bonds through legislature in council because they are the local taxing body. By the same token, this also happens in the county structure because they are also another taxing body and service portions of the bonds that are drawn need to be passed through the local legislature, not as part of their debt, but more as notice. it sounds as if the local taxing body is taking on this debt and in reading it is ultimately guaranteeing the bond transaction, but none of these agencies or authorities have defaulted on their bond payments, have they?? therefore, it seems to me that these numbers are inflated and incorrect. the city's debt is debt that was actually drawn down by the city itself, not the sewer authority, not the school district, (which is a taxing entity unto itself and doesn't need the city to pay it's bills or bond fees and like i explained previously, needs the local taxing bodies to approve in legal form, their bond issues) nor the parking authority, which is an authority with bond allowances on it's own. just as in the case of a KOZ, it has to be approved by all taxing bodies who receive taxes from that jurisdiction, which would include the county, the city or municipality and the local school district. it would be incorrect to lump all of that together and say it is the "city's debt," when in actuality, it may be debt that had to pass through the legislature as notice.

[blip]

Originally Posted by weluvpa

Its closer to $650,000,000 in long term.

That number includes the all municipal debt that the taxpayers are responsible for....

City:

200,000,000 bond debt
72,000,000 loan
6,000,000 loan
10,000,000 loan
6,000,000 loan
6,000,000 American water judgement
3,000,000 debt service from Hilton
1,000,000 dep fine
____________________

$298,000,000

This does not include any interest on the loans or bonds, it also does not include several million in lost arbitration awards for the unions.


Sewer:

5,300,000 loan
5,000,000 loan
2,874,649 loan
4,000,000 loan
8,000,000 loan
___________________

$25,174, 649


Again this is brief just loans...No interest

Parking:

35,000,000 bond issue that will be 95,000,000 in 25 years
16,100,000 bond issue


Already we are at $434,274,649 and that does not include interest or the School District debt..

If you add the SSD and then interest on the larger loans/bond issues we are easily close to the $650,000,000 mark. Not to mention that I have not listed the full parking authroity debt(can't find my notes) and the full sewer authority debt either..

Brief and quick got me to the $434,274,649 number minus the SSD and interest.

Hi, You say these figures don't include interest, but future interest should not be included in figures of debt, and accrued interest is usually more than offset by payments. Does that mean you also haven't subtracted past payments? Ie- are these the original values of the bonds/loans, not the current debt? (Or have all of these debts gone completely unpaid, and have just accumulated more debt through interest? -- That seems unlikely....)

Also, can you give more details on what the 9 "loans" are and when they're from, especially the 4 loans to the city?

Thanks

[blip]

Originally Posted by VinceWhirlwind

the city's debt is debt that was actually drawn down by the city itself, not the sewer authority, not the school district, (which is a taxing entity unto itself and doesn't need the city to pay it's bills or bond fees and like i explained previously, needs the local taxing bodies to approve in legal form, their bond issues) nor the parking authority, which is an authority with bond allowances on it's own. just as in the case of a KOZ, it has to be approved by all taxing bodies who receive taxes from that jurisdiction, which would include the county, the city or municipality and the local school district. it would be incorrect to lump all of that together and say it is the "city's debt," when in actuality, it may be debt that had to pass through the legislature as notice.

I'm new to town and still don't completely understand how the school district operates as a taxing entity unto itself (and apparently has no ties to the city government then?)

But, seems like their debts *should* be counted if you're talking about total municipal debt, as residents of the municipality are ultimately the only people who are going to pay it. (Right? The county or state isn't responsible for the debt.)

If so, I'd still call the (lowercase) city's debt, if not the City's debt.

Please tell me if I'm missing something. Thanks

[snelling1225]

I can agree that the "Old" buildings were quite unique and packed with history. My grandmother owned the building at 420 Lackawanna Avenue from 1966 until 1981. I can remember as a child playing in the building. It was orginally built in the late 1800's as a bank and had the original unopened vault in the basement, a hand-operated Otis elevator that worked and even the wooden style teller booths from the Bank that were left in the top floor. It was a piece of history, now gone!